Is all experience born equal?
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chilagringa
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:19 pm
Re: Is all experience born equal?
at least you have a job in canada, which isn't the easiest thing to come by right about now. i guess it depends on where in canada...
v.
v.
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chilagringa
- Posts: 335
- Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:19 pm
Re: Is all experience born equal?
Don't get me wrong... I realize that I'm lucky. Many of my friends are subbing away.
My point is that, from my experience (and the experience of friends) first year public school teachers don't necessarily get any supports. It's sink or swim, at least in my school board.
My point is that, from my experience (and the experience of friends) first year public school teachers don't necessarily get any supports. It's sink or swim, at least in my school board.
Re: Is all experience born equal?
You have to remember, too, that you would also be adjusting to life in a foreign country with all of the ups and downs that that entails. If you haven't done it before, it's hard to understand how much time and effort that takes, especially your first year teaching. I've moved 4 times and each time it still takes a lot of settling in, and I can see that I (and my colleagues) are not at the top of their game that first year, no matter how experienced.
I worked at an elite Asian school that had HIGHLY experienced teachers, but also hired teachers from the States with 3-4 years of experience under their belts, and they weren't in high demand areas. They had the right qualities, though, that allowed them to jump in and teach and contribute and grow. If you have the drive and ambition, your efforts will get noticed, I think, by ITs, even if you don't have overseas experience. The one thing that I've noticed about my overseas colleagues compared to my back-at-home colleagues was ambition. The overseas teachers I've worked with and the ones that have picked up great jobs at every change have been that--pushing themselves to learn more, to contribute in different ways, to participate fully in the growth of the school. Because teachers move so much more overseas, the resume building is something that I think teachers may pay more attention to than back in the States, where mobility is not rewarded.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I would caution on just taking any job anywhere, just to get overseas. There are some really terrible schools out there--and you do spend the majority of your time at work. A bad school or situation can be expensive, not just in costs, but in your attitude, your professional growth, your frame of mind. Don't sell yourself short just because you're a newish teacher or have a history background (so does my hubby and we've never had a problem). Focus on developing yourself as a teacher, contributing to the school you're at while you look for a job that's a good professional and personal fit.
I worked at an elite Asian school that had HIGHLY experienced teachers, but also hired teachers from the States with 3-4 years of experience under their belts, and they weren't in high demand areas. They had the right qualities, though, that allowed them to jump in and teach and contribute and grow. If you have the drive and ambition, your efforts will get noticed, I think, by ITs, even if you don't have overseas experience. The one thing that I've noticed about my overseas colleagues compared to my back-at-home colleagues was ambition. The overseas teachers I've worked with and the ones that have picked up great jobs at every change have been that--pushing themselves to learn more, to contribute in different ways, to participate fully in the growth of the school. Because teachers move so much more overseas, the resume building is something that I think teachers may pay more attention to than back in the States, where mobility is not rewarded.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I would caution on just taking any job anywhere, just to get overseas. There are some really terrible schools out there--and you do spend the majority of your time at work. A bad school or situation can be expensive, not just in costs, but in your attitude, your professional growth, your frame of mind. Don't sell yourself short just because you're a newish teacher or have a history background (so does my hubby and we've never had a problem). Focus on developing yourself as a teacher, contributing to the school you're at while you look for a job that's a good professional and personal fit.
Reply
@LUWahoo
If you dont want to teach ESOL, and being an IT is what you have your heart set on dont get a TESOL certificate, until you plan on transitioning to ESOL.
You can work hard all you want, effort does not equal success. Its hard to hear but the marketability for a straight history teacher with nothing else is very low? The forum contributors are not trying to beat you down or be doom and gloom, we get lots of posts come late summer of people who are so dismayed, frustrated, and angry because no one (that they were interested in) wanted them. There are teachers who expire out from their agency with nothing.
If saving is important to you stay home, the reality of IT is that you make more at home unless your teaching at an elite tier school and your in the WE. The IT average is $30K a year, and you find high taxes, low salary or a place you dont want to be, with a very thin layer of ITs who are doing very well.
It depends what you mean by hurt, SG (Singapore) is very expensive a third tier school like CNIS will pay you about $5K a month, taxes on that will be 15% (when you first get there and drop to7% after half a year). A1BR flat thats not a room share will cost about $2500. Everything is pretty much imported and is expensive, so after two years your not likely to have saved anything, and working there will at best give you IB. Around 6 years SAS might give you an interview. All of that depends on getting the right experience and getting hired, and as much as you love history, there isnt a lot of market for a single subject social studies teacher.
I would agree with your observations, many 1st year domestic teachers get very little support, it is sink or swim now, since there are so many teachers out of work, schools dont have to invest in cultivating a strong teacher, they can just let them drown, get rid of them and give the next one a try.
@mamava
I agree there are some really horrible train wreck of schools out there but it sounds like the poster is in a pretty bad domestic school too. 35 students, no support, few resources. Bad is bad no matter where you are, might as well be overseas.
If you dont want to teach ESOL, and being an IT is what you have your heart set on dont get a TESOL certificate, until you plan on transitioning to ESOL.
You can work hard all you want, effort does not equal success. Its hard to hear but the marketability for a straight history teacher with nothing else is very low? The forum contributors are not trying to beat you down or be doom and gloom, we get lots of posts come late summer of people who are so dismayed, frustrated, and angry because no one (that they were interested in) wanted them. There are teachers who expire out from their agency with nothing.
If saving is important to you stay home, the reality of IT is that you make more at home unless your teaching at an elite tier school and your in the WE. The IT average is $30K a year, and you find high taxes, low salary or a place you dont want to be, with a very thin layer of ITs who are doing very well.
It depends what you mean by hurt, SG (Singapore) is very expensive a third tier school like CNIS will pay you about $5K a month, taxes on that will be 15% (when you first get there and drop to7% after half a year). A1BR flat thats not a room share will cost about $2500. Everything is pretty much imported and is expensive, so after two years your not likely to have saved anything, and working there will at best give you IB. Around 6 years SAS might give you an interview. All of that depends on getting the right experience and getting hired, and as much as you love history, there isnt a lot of market for a single subject social studies teacher.
I would agree with your observations, many 1st year domestic teachers get very little support, it is sink or swim now, since there are so many teachers out of work, schools dont have to invest in cultivating a strong teacher, they can just let them drown, get rid of them and give the next one a try.
@mamava
I agree there are some really horrible train wreck of schools out there but it sounds like the poster is in a pretty bad domestic school too. 35 students, no support, few resources. Bad is bad no matter where you are, might as well be overseas.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Is all experience born equal?
LULWahoo wrote:
> What is this mysterious support you mention? I'm a first year public school teacher
> and I teach in classes I'm not qualified or experienced for, with 35 kids each, and I
> basically never see any administrators. No one has ever seen me teach. Luckily I make
> it work, having some experience pre-BEd, but I have no idea how a legitimate first
> year teacher would survive. Even at my third-tier intl school pre-BEd, I felt much
> more supported.
I mean the support of the community, being able to speak the language, make assumptions that you know will generally be correct, have admin back you (or your teacher association/federation rep).
Contrast that with going to a school where you find they have 0 resources. Librarian (a local) won't sign books out of the library because he or she is responsible for ANY amage, despite the fact the kids have the books. There are no text books, teacher support materials for the curriculum, nothing, yet students are expected to be kept busy in your class 1 hour a day - and on the odd day, maybe 2 hours. No projector, white board, computer lab, nada.
Now add in you don't speak the language. Say one day you intervene in a conflict between two students. Everything goes back to normal. You go back to your apartment in what amounts to a local slum, where only the poorest host nationals live. But wait - it's "free!". Then you break a table that has obviously been broken before and end up paying $100 salary deduction to buy a new one, even though it never seems to show up in YOUR apartment. You got one that resembles strongly the table you 'broke' (though nobody would ever admit it was broken before).
Ahhhh....fall break comes. You have purchased your ticket, head to the airport to fly off to your dream holiday for week, and find that you're going nowhere because remember that altercation you broke up? Well the dad of one of those boys has now launched a case against you and you are prohibited from leaving the country. Your embassy can't help you, your admin can't help you...so there you go.
Granted this is an extreme case scenario, but stuff like this goes on all the time at the kind of crap schools that hire fresh new teachers like you. That's what I mean when I say support. Despite the fact that your admin might not visit you regularly, you do have defined legal rights and access to due process. You do speak the language. You do have a teacher federation that legally has to have your back (instead of teachers being told by admin that having anything to do with you is the kiss of death, or some similar malarkey).
The nice thing about experience at home is it generally qualifies you for better schools than the ones I've described. However, I know of experienced teachers who have ended up at places like that because they had no clue and signed on the first dotted line in front of them based on promises and premises that turned out to be wildly inaccurate. The nicer thing about experience on the circuit is you learn which schools I am talking about before you even get to the job application stage and avoid them entirely.
Good luck with your search!
shad
> What is this mysterious support you mention? I'm a first year public school teacher
> and I teach in classes I'm not qualified or experienced for, with 35 kids each, and I
> basically never see any administrators. No one has ever seen me teach. Luckily I make
> it work, having some experience pre-BEd, but I have no idea how a legitimate first
> year teacher would survive. Even at my third-tier intl school pre-BEd, I felt much
> more supported.
I mean the support of the community, being able to speak the language, make assumptions that you know will generally be correct, have admin back you (or your teacher association/federation rep).
Contrast that with going to a school where you find they have 0 resources. Librarian (a local) won't sign books out of the library because he or she is responsible for ANY amage, despite the fact the kids have the books. There are no text books, teacher support materials for the curriculum, nothing, yet students are expected to be kept busy in your class 1 hour a day - and on the odd day, maybe 2 hours. No projector, white board, computer lab, nada.
Now add in you don't speak the language. Say one day you intervene in a conflict between two students. Everything goes back to normal. You go back to your apartment in what amounts to a local slum, where only the poorest host nationals live. But wait - it's "free!". Then you break a table that has obviously been broken before and end up paying $100 salary deduction to buy a new one, even though it never seems to show up in YOUR apartment. You got one that resembles strongly the table you 'broke' (though nobody would ever admit it was broken before).
Ahhhh....fall break comes. You have purchased your ticket, head to the airport to fly off to your dream holiday for week, and find that you're going nowhere because remember that altercation you broke up? Well the dad of one of those boys has now launched a case against you and you are prohibited from leaving the country. Your embassy can't help you, your admin can't help you...so there you go.
Granted this is an extreme case scenario, but stuff like this goes on all the time at the kind of crap schools that hire fresh new teachers like you. That's what I mean when I say support. Despite the fact that your admin might not visit you regularly, you do have defined legal rights and access to due process. You do speak the language. You do have a teacher federation that legally has to have your back (instead of teachers being told by admin that having anything to do with you is the kiss of death, or some similar malarkey).
The nice thing about experience at home is it generally qualifies you for better schools than the ones I've described. However, I know of experienced teachers who have ended up at places like that because they had no clue and signed on the first dotted line in front of them based on promises and premises that turned out to be wildly inaccurate. The nicer thing about experience on the circuit is you learn which schools I am talking about before you even get to the job application stage and avoid them entirely.
Good luck with your search!
shad
Comment
The scenario SJ describes is not untrue, or unrealistic (extreme) but that and worse does happen. Ive seen schools were teachers left at the end of their contract with zero in the last month as their entire salary was deducted as damages to their room (one school charged its teachers for the windows upgrade that was made to the schools computers. Several other schools gave their teachers a resource budget, but didnt tell them the textbooks that were already purchased were counted against that budget, and teachers ended up having their salaries deducted when they went "over" budget. Some of those teachers had spent almost nothing but each textbook that went to each student was invoiced against their budget, teachers were literally paying for their students textbooks). Ive seen teachers discharged days before the end of the school year so the school would not have to pay bonuses of supply return flights. Ive seen school admins make wide allegations that got teachers jailed and deported.
Re: Is all experience born equal?
the
> kiss of death, or some similar malarkey).
bonus points for using the word 'malarkey'.
v.
> kiss of death, or some similar malarkey).
bonus points for using the word 'malarkey'.
v.
Re: Is all experience born equal?
Appreciate all the advice and information
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Is all experience born equal?
Thanks VandSmith! haha
LUWahoo - as for doing the CELTA or TESOL - it will enable you to go overseas. It won't get you into an international school that would be one I would work at. It will get you into contract teaching that counts 0 to years experience, will get you nowhere when you finally decide to go for it at a school on the circuit as opposed to the language schools, and will cot you money.
DAgain - my advice. Do your two years. After this year, you will have a much better idea of what you need to do. Get everything lined up. Then go to a job fair like UNI, in February, or an ISS iFair (online).
Good luck and keep us posted!
shad
LUWahoo - as for doing the CELTA or TESOL - it will enable you to go overseas. It won't get you into an international school that would be one I would work at. It will get you into contract teaching that counts 0 to years experience, will get you nowhere when you finally decide to go for it at a school on the circuit as opposed to the language schools, and will cot you money.
DAgain - my advice. Do your two years. After this year, you will have a much better idea of what you need to do. Get everything lined up. Then go to a job fair like UNI, in February, or an ISS iFair (online).
Good luck and keep us posted!
shad
Disucssion
It will get you into an IS, just a very poor one. ISs in the ME, and the less desirable/competitive parts of Asia that will take an ESOL teacher who wants to teach history and give them a classroom, because its not a history class its an ESOL class that just looks like a history class.
At this point the idea of waiting is just passing up opportunity. The LW has such low marketability they should be applying for every history position as they come available starting as soon as possible hoping too get lucky. 2 years and going to BOS or Uni as just a history is to be more less marketable than a teacher candidate with one year. If the plan was wait 5 years, diversify your teaching load (teaching history, some civics, and economics, and others) while adding AP experience and a graduate degree while getting good references, then thats a marketable option. Based on the LWs scenario that doesnt sound like its going to happen. They will just add years of the same with no growth.
At this point the idea of waiting is just passing up opportunity. The LW has such low marketability they should be applying for every history position as they come available starting as soon as possible hoping too get lucky. 2 years and going to BOS or Uni as just a history is to be more less marketable than a teacher candidate with one year. If the plan was wait 5 years, diversify your teaching load (teaching history, some civics, and economics, and others) while adding AP experience and a graduate degree while getting good references, then thats a marketable option. Based on the LWs scenario that doesnt sound like its going to happen. They will just add years of the same with no growth.
Re: Disucssion
PsyGuy wrote:
> It will get you into an IS, just a very poor one. ISs in the ME, and the
> less desirable/competitive parts of Asia that will take an ESOL teacher who
> wants to teach history and give them a classroom, because its not a
> history class its an ESOL class that just looks like a history class.
Not an ESOL teacher... I was saying if I didn't enjoy IT teaching, then in the future it wouldn't be that difficult to get a CELTA or other similar accreditation if I wanted to move into ESL teaching, but for now my only focus is IT.
>
> At this point the idea of waiting is just passing up opportunity. The LW
> has such low marketability they should be applying for every history
> position as they come available starting as soon as possible hoping too get
> lucky. 2 years and going to BOS or Uni as just a history is to be more
> less marketable than a teacher candidate with one year. If the plan was
> wait 5 years, diversify your teaching load (teaching history, some civics,
> and economics, and others) while adding AP experience and a graduate degree
> while getting good references, then thats a marketable option. Based on the
> LWs scenario that doesnt sound like its going to happen. They will just add
> years of the same with no growth.
Applying to almost any and all Social Studies positions is my plan.. I've gotten a list of 6 cities (trying to hit 10-12) in China that I'm going to look for jobs in. The biggest thing is just trying to get my foot in the door. Once I can do that, I think I could make most situations work until I had the chance to move to a better school.
> It will get you into an IS, just a very poor one. ISs in the ME, and the
> less desirable/competitive parts of Asia that will take an ESOL teacher who
> wants to teach history and give them a classroom, because its not a
> history class its an ESOL class that just looks like a history class.
Not an ESOL teacher... I was saying if I didn't enjoy IT teaching, then in the future it wouldn't be that difficult to get a CELTA or other similar accreditation if I wanted to move into ESL teaching, but for now my only focus is IT.
>
> At this point the idea of waiting is just passing up opportunity. The LW
> has such low marketability they should be applying for every history
> position as they come available starting as soon as possible hoping too get
> lucky. 2 years and going to BOS or Uni as just a history is to be more
> less marketable than a teacher candidate with one year. If the plan was
> wait 5 years, diversify your teaching load (teaching history, some civics,
> and economics, and others) while adding AP experience and a graduate degree
> while getting good references, then thats a marketable option. Based on the
> LWs scenario that doesnt sound like its going to happen. They will just add
> years of the same with no growth.
Applying to almost any and all Social Studies positions is my plan.. I've gotten a list of 6 cities (trying to hit 10-12) in China that I'm going to look for jobs in. The biggest thing is just trying to get my foot in the door. Once I can do that, I think I could make most situations work until I had the chance to move to a better school.
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emilysue1212
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:55 pm
- Location: Colorado
Re: Is all experience born equal?
There are plenty of ITs who have zero experience before going abroad, end up at one of these "low-hanging fruit" schools for a few years, then move on to better gigs. The UNI fair is chalk full of them! It is possible to get hired at fairly decent (though by no means first tier) schools with no experience. But yes-many of these schools are in "undesirable" locations (I.e.-the Middle East). If you are as flexible as you say you are, find a decent school in the ME and then spend 2 or 3 years packing your resume by teaching a variety of classes, advanced courses, etc. Get IB training, if possible. Coach a sport. That's one of the benefits of starting out at one of these schools. Do most people with minimal experience move on from a tier 2 or 3 school in the ME to their dream school? No. But it does happen. At my school in Kuwait, 2 excellent but relatively "new" teachers (1-2 years teaching in the states; 3 years in Kuwait) were heavily recruited this year and ended up taking jobs at a tier one school in Asia. Another couple had zero teaching experience before starting at our school 3 years ago. Next year, they're heading to Singapore American School. Is it likely to happen? No. You have to play your cards right, make the most of your time at your current gig, and choose your first school wisely. There really are some stinker schools out there that won't result in anything more than a lateral move after any number of years. But if you can handle a "hardship" post at a fairly decent school for a few years, then it's certainly possible to land a great job in the near future.
Comment
The typical career track is 6 years, and the general rule is you can either move up one in tier where you are or move over to a better location at the same tier per contract period. 6 years puts most people in either WE or a 1st tier school, waiting for an elite tier vacancy.