OK. So I'll try to limit this so it doesn't become a novel.
I am in the last year of my American teacher's certification program. I'm 27 currently, and will be 28 when I finish in March/April of 2016. I started out with a degree is Business Admin, but found out quickly that my real passion was teaching, specifically history and social studies, and so took steps to make teaching my career.
I have loads of international experience in general. I have lived in Indonesia, Taiwan, Iraq, and Kuwait and have spent nearly half of my life overseas. My wife has spent even more time overseas. Living internationally has become a lifestyle for us and so teaching internationally is the obvious career choice, given our backgrounds.
To sum up my background. I have roughly 4 years of teaching experience at the upper elementary and lower secondary levels, almost all of which are ESL. I have no licensed teaching experience as far as "regular" teaching goes. I am in a Master's program with a certification track and will finish my certification in March/April of 2016 and my Master's shortly thereafter.
Also, I am married and have three kids (7, 2, and 4 months) - only one of which would be eligible to be in school for the 2016-17 school year. My wife is also an ESL teacher, but isn't certified and won't be for a while (we put my career/education first so she could focus on the kids - once I'm done, she'll probably try to find an online certification program).
Finally, my certification will be in Secondary Social Studies (History/Social Studies/Geography/Economics/etc. in the social studies realm). So, given the above information, I guess here are the questions I would most appreciate answers to:
1. How reasonable are my expectations of getting a job for the 2016-17 school year as a "new" teacher with my limited experience? (Keep in mind, we are willing to move just about ANYWHERE, including Africa, South America, East Asia, etc - probably only Siberia and Mongolia and other places that are excessively cold would be out of the question)
2. Will have only 1 dependent student play in my favor, even though there are administrative considerations with the others, plus the trailing partner.
3. Will schools accepts resumes/CVs/applications and requests for interviews from someone who is not yet certified (even though it will more or less be a guarantee at that point)?
4. Should I wait until the final semester (spring 2016) to apply? Or should I hop on board as early as possible, in the fall, with all of the experienced candidates.
5. How common is it, in your experience or knowledge, for people to apply for those postings that are still lingering around the boards in May/June - and how common is it for the jobs to still be open?.
6. Slightly unrelated: Schools prefer teaching couples - but is that primarily in the younger ages like primary and elementary? Or is that just in general?
7. And, with that in mind, when my wife goes for her certification, she has considered elementary but would sort of prefer high school and something in the sociology realm - would be in direct competition for jobs? Or would it increase our chances?
I think I probably have a lot more questions, but I don't want to overwhelm or overextend anyone willing to help. Thanks so much. I'm really looking forward to getting my career off the ground.
New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
Hi. Welcome to the boards and the brotherhood of international teachers. :D
I'll try and give you some answers (all based solely on my own personal experiences and humble opinion, of course). Firstly, the bad news is that schools won't really credit your ESL experience as teaching experience. It will help to show that you probably won't wilt or run from the first bit of culture shock. On the other hand, some schools (newer, dodgier, less picky, less desirable locations) will take that and your newly minted certification and call it good.
I would apply to schools for jobs starting in fall of 2016. The recruiting season for then starts in late 2015. You may as well apply and just state when your certification will be effective. Schools will accept CVs at any time really and they decide who is worth interviewing. Social studies/humanities positions are fairly common but then so are candidates. It's not a high needs field such as math or science but the jobs are out there every year at most every school. If your wife goes for the same certification then yes you would be doubling up to some extent. I know couples who have managed this (MS vs. HS, History Vs Geography/Humanities etc) but in general it would put you at some disadvantage in your job hunt compared to if she went for elementary, English, SPED, Math, Science etc. Doable but far from ideal.
Which makes a nice segue into the dependent situation. As you say, only one student for the potential school in the near future but the sheer number of dependents is going to put many schools off right from the start. It will be less of an issue once your wife is certified and marketable, as one child per teacher is very common and acceptable for most schools and you will be just over that (unless you continue to increase the family size). Bottom line is that it will be a factor against you in the short to medium term and limit some opportunities. Doable but far from ideal.
In general, schools do prefer couples or singles without kids across the school. Couples save them money on housing etc and provide a built in support system. Childless singles save them money on school spaces, visas etc. Then again many schools like to have a mix of staff (older, younger, families, singles etc). Often schools employ couples with one in secondary and one in elementary. I don't know if this is a preference or just a reflection of the candidate pool.
In summary, you have a decent chance of getting a job even as a new teacher if you are open to many locations and willing to go with a newer/lower tier school to get your foot in the door. Places like China could be a great starting point as there are tons of schools, especially in the larger cities. The Middle East could also be a fruitful hunting ground for you. Good luck and feel free to keep the questions coming.
I'll try and give you some answers (all based solely on my own personal experiences and humble opinion, of course). Firstly, the bad news is that schools won't really credit your ESL experience as teaching experience. It will help to show that you probably won't wilt or run from the first bit of culture shock. On the other hand, some schools (newer, dodgier, less picky, less desirable locations) will take that and your newly minted certification and call it good.
I would apply to schools for jobs starting in fall of 2016. The recruiting season for then starts in late 2015. You may as well apply and just state when your certification will be effective. Schools will accept CVs at any time really and they decide who is worth interviewing. Social studies/humanities positions are fairly common but then so are candidates. It's not a high needs field such as math or science but the jobs are out there every year at most every school. If your wife goes for the same certification then yes you would be doubling up to some extent. I know couples who have managed this (MS vs. HS, History Vs Geography/Humanities etc) but in general it would put you at some disadvantage in your job hunt compared to if she went for elementary, English, SPED, Math, Science etc. Doable but far from ideal.
Which makes a nice segue into the dependent situation. As you say, only one student for the potential school in the near future but the sheer number of dependents is going to put many schools off right from the start. It will be less of an issue once your wife is certified and marketable, as one child per teacher is very common and acceptable for most schools and you will be just over that (unless you continue to increase the family size). Bottom line is that it will be a factor against you in the short to medium term and limit some opportunities. Doable but far from ideal.
In general, schools do prefer couples or singles without kids across the school. Couples save them money on housing etc and provide a built in support system. Childless singles save them money on school spaces, visas etc. Then again many schools like to have a mix of staff (older, younger, families, singles etc). Often schools employ couples with one in secondary and one in elementary. I don't know if this is a preference or just a reflection of the candidate pool.
In summary, you have a decent chance of getting a job even as a new teacher if you are open to many locations and willing to go with a newer/lower tier school to get your foot in the door. Places like China could be a great starting point as there are tons of schools, especially in the larger cities. The Middle East could also be a fruitful hunting ground for you. Good luck and feel free to keep the questions coming.
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
I wanted to touch on your wive's certification question (#7).
I would say that the social sciences and elementary are probably the two most competitive areas for international teaching. If you are in the social sciences, I would recommend that your wife get certified in another area. I am certified in social sciences and another area, and I can say from first hand experience, I have gotten my jobs because of my other area of certification and then worked my way into the social sciences. At my current school, we have waaayyy too many people wanting social science positions. It is not very common for schools to have two open positions for social science and it would make it more difficult to find positions in the future. You might get lucky and larger schools might have two positions available, but my opinion is that you'd be majorly limiting yourselves to both be certified in social sciences. Schools generally want to be able to fill hard to fill positions and then the partner is given social sciences or elementary.
There are always exceptions, but I wanted to put this out there as you consider future moves.
I would say that the social sciences and elementary are probably the two most competitive areas for international teaching. If you are in the social sciences, I would recommend that your wife get certified in another area. I am certified in social sciences and another area, and I can say from first hand experience, I have gotten my jobs because of my other area of certification and then worked my way into the social sciences. At my current school, we have waaayyy too many people wanting social science positions. It is not very common for schools to have two open positions for social science and it would make it more difficult to find positions in the future. You might get lucky and larger schools might have two positions available, but my opinion is that you'd be majorly limiting yourselves to both be certified in social sciences. Schools generally want to be able to fill hard to fill positions and then the partner is given social sciences or elementary.
There are always exceptions, but I wanted to put this out there as you consider future moves.
Response
Wrldtrvlr123 is way nicer than I am, and a little too liberal with the rainbows and sunshine
None of your ESOL teaching experience will count for anything, except in the specific case of a qualified and certified teacher teaching in a regulated/independent/public school, and then its going to be looked at very carefully.
1) Very close to zero, your logistically unemployable. Three kids and a trailing spouse for a humanities teacher, with no experience, not going to happen. A school has to fund 5 people to fill a history classroom, who they dont even know will be successful. There are people with a decade of IB experience with your family logistical situation who cant get hired as ITs.
2) No not really, school places are valued at about $10K per person, but they are far from the only problem. In some countries like Asia, finding a 4 bedroom room or even 3 bedroom wouldnt be available. The top tier schools could make that financially and logistically doable, but none of them are going to be interested. You also have insurance, flights, visas, all costs not mitigated by the school attendance.
3) Well you pretty much email them your application packet (or int he case of a premium agency, they email a link to your profile), so it would be hard for them not to accept it. In IT two things matter for an admin and recruiter (well three, but the first two are the big ones), and those are What you can teach (certifications, degrees, etc) and what you have taught (experience), of those two experience is king. You have no experience, and the bar to entering IE is 2 years, your basically an intern, and if you were single on the circuit at the BOS fair (the intern fair) it would be hard enough, but with traveling 4 dependents for a history teacher, not going to happen.
So will they accept it sure, but it is what it is your not certified and maybe will be certified. Why should a school take a risk on someone who isnt certified, and regardless of how small that risk is, why take the risk. Youll just be way, way, way, down the the pile, lot of people above you.
4) How much money do you want to spend, and not get any return on your investment? You need to spend a couple years locally, actually a lot of years locally building up a marketable resume. Really there isnt anything for you to "jump into", the premier agencies (SA and ISS) wont take you, that leaves TIE/Joy jobs, TES, COBIS, Schrole, the first three are job boards, the last two are application services like Monster jobs, etc. TIE/Joy is $30, the others free you might as well start now at that price point. What will happen is youll get some bottom tier schools who will give you some luke warm interest and maybe a few interviews (because they figure you will work for basically nothing), and as soon as your dependents come up, that will be the end of the interview and application process.
5) Several reasons: A) Some of the bottom tier schools and schools in really undesirable locations basically cant compete, so they really are only mopping up the desperate who cant work anywhere else, and theres no reason to but resources into that until youve identified the desperate. B) Schools typically ask for intent notices and letters in October'ish, however in places like Europe because of various union and labor rules and regulations those letters may not be binding or enforceable until some time/date much closer to the end of contract. So a teacher might submit an advance notice to vacate or resign in October, but its not actually binding until say 60 days before the termination date in the contract putting it closer to May, which before then the teacher withdraws their notice, and then they keep their job.
C) Last minute vacancies, enrollment grows, a school needs another form/section of elementary or something. Someone goes on maternity leave, or a medical emergency or family emergency. Someone just resigns last minute or late in the year.
6) Just in general, childless couples are cheaper for a school. Insurance costs for a couple on a policy are less than two individuals. They get a savings on housing as couple housing allowances are usually around 1.5 the single rate instead of double for 2 individuals, and 2 bedroom apartments are cheaper than 2 one bedroom apartments, basic costs of scale savings. Couples are also more stable and have a stronger support system at least initially in the contract, though your more likely to NOT get on the plane as a couple (which is an admins biggest fear after recruiting and before reporting).
7) You would be in direct competition and social studies/humanities teachers are everywhere after elementary, everyone tends to have a social studies/humanities certificate. What shes going to want to do is something like SPED which is nothing like it is domestically in an IS. The reason is that any school that green lights your application is going to have to be willing to absorb the cost and that measn upper tier schools, as lower tier schools basically dont have SPED at all.
Second your going to want to get into as many AP classes as you can and get really good scores, even better would be IB at DIP level, and get really good scores. Your spouse should also pursue an IB placement for her field experience when getting certified SPED PYP, would be ideal). Your going to need to stand out, and most entry level teachers just dont have IB experience of any kind.
None of your ESOL teaching experience will count for anything, except in the specific case of a qualified and certified teacher teaching in a regulated/independent/public school, and then its going to be looked at very carefully.
1) Very close to zero, your logistically unemployable. Three kids and a trailing spouse for a humanities teacher, with no experience, not going to happen. A school has to fund 5 people to fill a history classroom, who they dont even know will be successful. There are people with a decade of IB experience with your family logistical situation who cant get hired as ITs.
2) No not really, school places are valued at about $10K per person, but they are far from the only problem. In some countries like Asia, finding a 4 bedroom room or even 3 bedroom wouldnt be available. The top tier schools could make that financially and logistically doable, but none of them are going to be interested. You also have insurance, flights, visas, all costs not mitigated by the school attendance.
3) Well you pretty much email them your application packet (or int he case of a premium agency, they email a link to your profile), so it would be hard for them not to accept it. In IT two things matter for an admin and recruiter (well three, but the first two are the big ones), and those are What you can teach (certifications, degrees, etc) and what you have taught (experience), of those two experience is king. You have no experience, and the bar to entering IE is 2 years, your basically an intern, and if you were single on the circuit at the BOS fair (the intern fair) it would be hard enough, but with traveling 4 dependents for a history teacher, not going to happen.
So will they accept it sure, but it is what it is your not certified and maybe will be certified. Why should a school take a risk on someone who isnt certified, and regardless of how small that risk is, why take the risk. Youll just be way, way, way, down the the pile, lot of people above you.
4) How much money do you want to spend, and not get any return on your investment? You need to spend a couple years locally, actually a lot of years locally building up a marketable resume. Really there isnt anything for you to "jump into", the premier agencies (SA and ISS) wont take you, that leaves TIE/Joy jobs, TES, COBIS, Schrole, the first three are job boards, the last two are application services like Monster jobs, etc. TIE/Joy is $30, the others free you might as well start now at that price point. What will happen is youll get some bottom tier schools who will give you some luke warm interest and maybe a few interviews (because they figure you will work for basically nothing), and as soon as your dependents come up, that will be the end of the interview and application process.
5) Several reasons: A) Some of the bottom tier schools and schools in really undesirable locations basically cant compete, so they really are only mopping up the desperate who cant work anywhere else, and theres no reason to but resources into that until youve identified the desperate. B) Schools typically ask for intent notices and letters in October'ish, however in places like Europe because of various union and labor rules and regulations those letters may not be binding or enforceable until some time/date much closer to the end of contract. So a teacher might submit an advance notice to vacate or resign in October, but its not actually binding until say 60 days before the termination date in the contract putting it closer to May, which before then the teacher withdraws their notice, and then they keep their job.
C) Last minute vacancies, enrollment grows, a school needs another form/section of elementary or something. Someone goes on maternity leave, or a medical emergency or family emergency. Someone just resigns last minute or late in the year.
6) Just in general, childless couples are cheaper for a school. Insurance costs for a couple on a policy are less than two individuals. They get a savings on housing as couple housing allowances are usually around 1.5 the single rate instead of double for 2 individuals, and 2 bedroom apartments are cheaper than 2 one bedroom apartments, basic costs of scale savings. Couples are also more stable and have a stronger support system at least initially in the contract, though your more likely to NOT get on the plane as a couple (which is an admins biggest fear after recruiting and before reporting).
7) You would be in direct competition and social studies/humanities teachers are everywhere after elementary, everyone tends to have a social studies/humanities certificate. What shes going to want to do is something like SPED which is nothing like it is domestically in an IS. The reason is that any school that green lights your application is going to have to be willing to absorb the cost and that measn upper tier schools, as lower tier schools basically dont have SPED at all.
Second your going to want to get into as many AP classes as you can and get really good scores, even better would be IB at DIP level, and get really good scores. Your spouse should also pursue an IB placement for her field experience when getting certified SPED PYP, would be ideal). Your going to need to stand out, and most entry level teachers just dont have IB experience of any kind.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
That's me. Just a child of the sun, riding a rainbow crapping unicorn, passing out happy pills and rose-tinted glasses and putting out positive vibes in all directions. Peace, brother.
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
@PsyGuy
Just to clarify, the Cambridge Fair is the intern fair?
Just to clarify, the Cambridge Fair is the intern fair?
Reply
::giggle::
@wrldtrvlr123
I can totally see that.
@lunarium
Yes, the Cambridge fair or BOS fair in early February is the intern fair. Dianna Kerry is the intern coordinator. It's run out of the BOS fair as its largely (though not exclusively) a US focused program, and American teachers have better access to the BOS fair.
@wrldtrvlr123
I can totally see that.
@lunarium
Yes, the Cambridge fair or BOS fair in early February is the intern fair. Dianna Kerry is the intern coordinator. It's run out of the BOS fair as its largely (though not exclusively) a US focused program, and American teachers have better access to the BOS fair.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
Having had many friends go to Boston in the past several years and get placements at desirable schools, while they combined the intern fair with the regular Cambridge fair (it used to be later in the year and I think Jessica Magnana or Sally Gordon was responsible for it), many experienced international teachers still do go to Boston. However, there has been a shift to London as more and more schools have opened in SE Asia, making Boston a harder fair to get to.
Just my 2 cents,
shad
Just my 2 cents,
shad
Discussion
Sally use to run an informal intern program out of the BOS fair. She really just helped out the upcoming college grads and recent grads who had no experience. SA didnt have a dedicated intern fair or event to my knowledge.
None of that is true. The rule has and is that you go to the earliest fair that you can since vacancies fill at fairs and that means fewer overall vacancies. The upper super fair is BKK, the middle super fair is LON and the lower super fair is BOS. BOS got bigger because in past/recent years because of the global recession and getting pushed out of domestic schools more teachers were attempting to enter as ITs. It has nothing to do with more SE schools and BOS getting more competitive, nothing about changing school attendance (and it has) effects candidate accessibility.
None of that is true. The rule has and is that you go to the earliest fair that you can since vacancies fill at fairs and that means fewer overall vacancies. The upper super fair is BKK, the middle super fair is LON and the lower super fair is BOS. BOS got bigger because in past/recent years because of the global recession and getting pushed out of domestic schools more teachers were attempting to enter as ITs. It has nothing to do with more SE schools and BOS getting more competitive, nothing about changing school attendance (and it has) effects candidate accessibility.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
PsyGuy, in the late 90's ALL my friends/colleagues from the region went to Boston. Now, few do. But I can attest that Boston used to be THE fair, because the people I worked with (who were highly sought after, and who are now at some of the best schools on the circuit) didn't go anywhere else. Boston was THE place to be at that point in time.
As to more SE Asian schools, of course that makes a difference. Do you think that the people in Asia who can go to Bangkok (which wasn't a big fair back in the day, if it even was a fair at that point) will go to Boston? The logistics of it are much more difficult, time-consuming and expensive. So they go to Bangkok. Second easiest, using those three factors, is London. So they go there. Most difficult of the big fairs? Boston. So most don't go.
Just my 2 cents and experience.
shad
As to more SE Asian schools, of course that makes a difference. Do you think that the people in Asia who can go to Bangkok (which wasn't a big fair back in the day, if it even was a fair at that point) will go to Boston? The logistics of it are much more difficult, time-consuming and expensive. So they go to Bangkok. Second easiest, using those three factors, is London. So they go there. Most difficult of the big fairs? Boston. So most don't go.
Just my 2 cents and experience.
shad
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Chargerfan
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:26 pm
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
If it's your first gig overseas, go to the UNI fair. There are a lot of first year people there and you will also find people with 3 dependents getting lucky as long as they have a teaching spouse. Just get your foot in the door in the best possible spot and then move on from there.
Discussion
Dont go to the UNI fair unless your not joining a premium agency, thats really what the UNI fair is. Even then given what you pay and travel investment you pay the majority would be better off with ISS or SA and getting access to their jobs and schools database.
@shadowjack
Your friends arent entry level novice teachers anymore of course they wouldnt go to the BOS fair. Yes it used to be "The" fair I agreed with that, its not anymore, hence the termd "used to", though its not a dump fair.
No it doesnt make a difference, the BOS fair has a lot of untapped capacity. You go to the best fair you can get into, and you can afford to go, that doesnt change the rankings of the fairs.
@shadowjack
Your friends arent entry level novice teachers anymore of course they wouldnt go to the BOS fair. Yes it used to be "The" fair I agreed with that, its not anymore, hence the termd "used to", though its not a dump fair.
No it doesnt make a difference, the BOS fair has a lot of untapped capacity. You go to the best fair you can get into, and you can afford to go, that doesnt change the rankings of the fairs.
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
The problem with dependents isn't just the tuition. Schools offer a 2 year contract to start, but they often want teachers to make a longer commitment to add stability and get good value. Hiring someone knowing they can't stay after the 2nd year might not be seen as in their best interest.
It's the other benefits that are important that are at issue as well. Trailing dependents get insurance, housing, and flights home...you might not get (or be able to afford) the size of housing you'd need. Could you afford additional housing, insurance, and flights for your family?
Once, in a difficult year, we were interviewing with 3 children (and both of us teachers). The school had a policy of only 2 dependents and told us the 3rd dependent was the deal-breaker. It was a good school, one that we wanted to make a 5-7 year commitment to and our oldest would have been a senior. We worked it out and figured we could pay tuition, insurance, and flights for him for that one year. It would be hard, but worth it to be able to get into that school and stay for a longer stretch. The school was out nothing in terms of resources and benefits--and they still passed us over.
Three children aren't a deal breaker as we know--but you technically have 4 and you're a new teacher. That's a lot of baggage...
It's the other benefits that are important that are at issue as well. Trailing dependents get insurance, housing, and flights home...you might not get (or be able to afford) the size of housing you'd need. Could you afford additional housing, insurance, and flights for your family?
Once, in a difficult year, we were interviewing with 3 children (and both of us teachers). The school had a policy of only 2 dependents and told us the 3rd dependent was the deal-breaker. It was a good school, one that we wanted to make a 5-7 year commitment to and our oldest would have been a senior. We worked it out and figured we could pay tuition, insurance, and flights for him for that one year. It would be hard, but worth it to be able to get into that school and stay for a longer stretch. The school was out nothing in terms of resources and benefits--and they still passed us over.
Three children aren't a deal breaker as we know--but you technically have 4 and you're a new teacher. That's a lot of baggage...
Comment
An issue unknown to many ITs is that EU regulations require an employer to act in good faith in offering a compensation package that allows a minimal standard of living for OSHs. The employer can face very stiff penalties if they fail to meet that standard.
Re: New teacher. Loads of questions. Thanks for any help!
Psy Guy or whoever you are. Get a life, dude. I've only been in this gig for a few years, and I can say, with certainty, that half the things you state as truths are your own opinions, with no semblance of evidence.