The International Schools Review Forum

I am talking about real extended courses. I guess you are talking about AP Calculus AB, the easier course. Imagine a mathematics course where all the content from AP Calculus BC (the challenging AP Calculus course) represented just two units out of a total of seven, plus an in depth exploration. That is IB Math HL (assuming you take the calculus option).

flyingrob31 wrote:
> I have a Science degree and credential in Physics. I teach Physics but also
> AP Calculus. Last year I taught 24 students. All of them passed the AP
> exam, most all of them with a score of 5. Its not that hard, you do not
> need to be gifted in math. You just need a strong work ethic and obviously
> you must learn the material. For myself, the ability to motivate students
> is more important than anything else.

Well that settles it. Nurture > Nature

People have natural talent towards a certain area. Some people lean towards the math/science...some are more creative and lean towards the Arts.
Despite your natural talent, if you dont work hard--you wont get better or grow.
Similar to organized people or not organized people. I am highly organized--its what I do.
It comes easy to me, my kid, on the other hand is extremely unorganized.
Can I teach her to be MORE organized? Yes. Can she memorize how to organize and how to put things back in their place? yep.
Will it come naturally to her? nope.
She will have to WORK at it. I have more potential to be The Queen of Organization because I am naturally inclined that way...my kid will have to work very hard to be Queen--because she isnt. Could she be Queen? Yep...maybe after years and years of practice.....I could make queen in a year or two. Three tops. :)

Can ANYBODY get a Phd in mathematics?
Probably not. Thank god.
Some people have natural math minds, some don't--but either way--it requires work and effort.
To be a teacher of higher order mathematics, without having the background or skill would be very stressful on the teacher--and perhaps do the natural math kid a disservice as that teacher wouldnt necessarily push the student to think bigger and higher.

pgrass wrote:
> I am talking about real extended courses. I guess you are talking about AP
> Calculus AB, the easier course. Imagine a mathematics course where all the
> content from AP Calculus BC (the challenging AP Calculus course)
> represented just two units out of a total of seven, plus an in depth
> exploration. That is IB Math HL (assuming you take the calculus option).


IB HL doesn't delve into calculus in anywhere near the same depth as Calc BC. Its a more generalist course and while not easy, its not the rocket science you make out to be. You sound like one of my egomaniac math professors. Didn't make the cut for university level did you?

Careful there---I for one dont think that being a teacher is in some way "less" than being an academic or professor or inventor etc. Being a great teacher requires a lot of skill, finesse, knowledge and insight. Lets not slam the teaching profession in an effort to win a debate--regardless of how boorish the contender :) This is seguing into the 'those who cant, teach' mindset, me thinks....

I don't think so either but you would have to be more of a natural.;-

SpedMaestro wrote:

> IB HL doesn't delve into calculus in anywhere near the same depth as Calc BC. Its
> a more generalist course and while not easy, its not the rocket science you make
> out to be.

Notice that I included the Calculus Option course in my argument. You have to do an option course in HL.

Flying Pigs: like many, you've got it wrong. True creativity is associated with Maths and Science; and rigour and -. I'll sit back now and wait for the plethora of nay sayers.

Dpurple--You are absolutely right--I got it totally wrong. Drat.

As a scholarship student, I can tell you all the other students I worked with were all innately strong - thinkers. We scored A's by intuitively understanding the Math as our ability to process algebra naturally is not the same as most. There were others in our class that just got by with their Bs and Cs and never challenged the top students. Exams were designed to try and separate us, and the time constraints meant the only way we lost marks were when we didn't have time to attempt the question. So it was hard for the other to touch the 90% grade. Oh, and most of us spent our time playing cards and other games at uni. Like anything else, math ability is a talent, no amount of rote learning will get you to my standard.

Having said that, successful completion of university Math is more than sufficient to teach high school and lower university. If you were lucky enough to study with actually talented mathematicians, you will learn to differentiate the strong students from your truly talented ones when you are teaching. I know several of my less distinguished mathematics classmates went on to be good teachers. Learning how to teach in your environment is always more important.

Where I would say being a good mathematician makes a big difference is identifying and nurturing talent. People usual identify strong math students well, but talented students typically scrape As and don't care because it is not challenging enough to put any intellectual effort in. Much like what I did at school, though I aced the only exams that mattered. These students will only work for someone they instinctively identify as being equally strong. I had one in the past and pushed him to much greater things, and now have two, which is rare when they aren't related. It makes a small difference with strong students as they see an opportunity to bridge the gap in your skills and work hard to get there

Its a learned / fostered / cultured "talent" for 90% of people. The only exception are the people with crazy memory or some other weird mental gift or disorder.

Didn't make the cut
for university level did you?

After getting the terminal degree in my field and finding out exactly how much less university professors make, as compared to public school teachers, it wasn't a hard choice between the two. Jobs in both areas are scarce, in both you will have to work very hard, but the pay and benefits are so much better in public schools, as compared to the 3 adjuncts = 1 retiring professor... why deal with those working conditions? Horrible pay to run all over town to maybe three different campuses at three different colleges to cobble together one paycheck for what will work out in the end to be less than minimum wage. And then, not knowing whether you have employment until about a week before the term starts, when the enrollment is in.

Explain to me again, why the professor has the better job?

Honestly speaking, your average first and even second year students in US colleges haven't had to work as hard or learned as much as students who have been through the Diploma Programme in the IB and done the work to do reasonably well in it. Many students who complete the IB say that their first year at college was not as difficult.
Incidentally, we have a math teacher at my current school who does not know how to teach HL, with the result that even the students and their parents know about it.

Most universities have rubbish math programs. And first year is designed to establish a base of algebra and calculus to do some proper math. There is a reason why a 7 in HL mean you don't do 1st year uni math and can enter 2nd. I entered 2nd year Math directly from a standard significantly higher than what IB has to offer, yet at my uni, I lacked the multivariable calculus that was done in my unis first year program. I have no doubt any student that can get a seven in IB math will have the requisitE skills to bridge any gap quickly. Though with the quality of the local program lowering, the standard at university has also had to slip.

I've seen what is taught at some other uni's math programs, but their graduates are equivalent to our second year. This is why respected schools have their prestige, it is earned. Those that did not have the opportunity will not understand why.

Teaching tertiary has its benefits that are constant pains in secondary. Responsibility is dumped on the student, as it should be. Poor attendance and lack of motivation is not your concern. Students alcohol and drug problems are their problems, unlike at a school where it becomes yours. Also your timetable is definitely clearer and you have the opportunity to pursue your passions (like primary school teachers since they have a TA to do all their time consuming work..rant). Being a good teacher anyway will make you popular as the students will enjoy your course and be motivated to do well, and you will not have to worry about having a job. I certainly never had that problem. The only reason I chose schools instead is for the educational benefit for my kids, as soon as they are old enough for college, then it will be time to reconsider. And sorry, the pay at a tertiary institute is also merit based, so I got paid more than I do now and had much higher earning potential. However, if I had to pay for kids education.....