Hello, thanks in advance for the replies and your patience since posts like mine show up all the time.
I am looking for an int'l school position and want to attend a fair in Bangkok next January but am not sure if I should go with ISS or SA.
I recently became certified in K-12 ESOL (found out I passed yesterday) but have no K-12 experience. All of my teaching experience (9 years) is at the undergraduate and graduate level at universities in South Korea. For the last six years I've been a TESOL trainer in South Korea's largest TESOL certificate/MA program. I have a Bachelor's in Elem. Ed and a Master's in Ed (TESOL). I am also working on a PhD in Applied Linguistics (should finish Spring 14). I've published several papers on second language acquisition in Korean peer-refereed journals and have presented at linguistics and TESOL conferences. I can speak Korean. I have a non-teaching spouse, a 4 year-old, and a 1-year old. ok... i think i mentioned everything.
So, what is a better fit for me and what are my chances of landing a decent position?
Thanks again! This information is invaluable.
Job Fair question...
Reply
From an academic position given your situation, assuming you get a choice, ISS is better. Its a little earlier, and your really only interested in upper tier schools, as they are the only ones that would consider you given how expensive a hire you are. Middle and lower tier schools just wont be able to afford you.
Realistically you dont. Your not going to get an invitation for either and that assumes they even except you as a candidate which is highly unlikely. The four overwhelming obstacles for you, they are:
1) Your not a teacher, your not certified. From an accreditation view or policy position, your "unqualified". All your degrees and certifications have little value.
2) You have no experience. All your experience is tertiary, and you have no IB/AP/IGCSE experience. None of your experience or publications is worth anything.
3) I didnt know which one, this or the next is the bigger problem. You are an ESOL instructor, which is like eating at a restaurant with a known E.Coli problem. Everything gets the rubber glove treatment, and everything you say and do is treated very careful and weighed very lightly. ESOL means nothing in this profession (with only some VERY narrow exceptions), and your university experience isnt worth anything. Your Masters in TESOL is basically an introduction to methods and pedagogy for native speakers who otherwise know nothing about teaching.
4) I was thinking maybe some school in bottom tier might be interested and then you got to your family logistics. No school is going to travel 4 people to fill an ESOL classroom. It just doesnt really happen. The issue is that the schools with the budget to afford you have a high portion of native English speaking students, so ESOL outside of the largest ISs becomes a combination position with another teaching area, and you have no other teaching areas. The schools with larger native/local student populations that would hire full time OSH ESOL teachers wouldnt hire you because your too expensive.
You need to either consider a career change, and add certification and put in some years in a K-12 classroom, preferably teaching something other then ESOL, and get your wife certified as well before you can be marketable. Otherwise you need to become content with a tenure track position in a foreign universities Language department. The other option is DOS/AM at a language school.
Realistically you dont. Your not going to get an invitation for either and that assumes they even except you as a candidate which is highly unlikely. The four overwhelming obstacles for you, they are:
1) Your not a teacher, your not certified. From an accreditation view or policy position, your "unqualified". All your degrees and certifications have little value.
2) You have no experience. All your experience is tertiary, and you have no IB/AP/IGCSE experience. None of your experience or publications is worth anything.
3) I didnt know which one, this or the next is the bigger problem. You are an ESOL instructor, which is like eating at a restaurant with a known E.Coli problem. Everything gets the rubber glove treatment, and everything you say and do is treated very careful and weighed very lightly. ESOL means nothing in this profession (with only some VERY narrow exceptions), and your university experience isnt worth anything. Your Masters in TESOL is basically an introduction to methods and pedagogy for native speakers who otherwise know nothing about teaching.
4) I was thinking maybe some school in bottom tier might be interested and then you got to your family logistics. No school is going to travel 4 people to fill an ESOL classroom. It just doesnt really happen. The issue is that the schools with the budget to afford you have a high portion of native English speaking students, so ESOL outside of the largest ISs becomes a combination position with another teaching area, and you have no other teaching areas. The schools with larger native/local student populations that would hire full time OSH ESOL teachers wouldnt hire you because your too expensive.
You need to either consider a career change, and add certification and put in some years in a K-12 classroom, preferably teaching something other then ESOL, and get your wife certified as well before you can be marketable. Otherwise you need to become content with a tenure track position in a foreign universities Language department. The other option is DOS/AM at a language school.
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boatdrinks
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Tue Jul 23, 2013 11:57 pm
Hi PsyGuy, thanks for the detailed response. The point about schools having the money not needing ESL teachers is a good one. I don't think this is the case in Korea so I will contact these schools first. I sub at a few schools here in Korea and live near another so I know that most of the students speak Korean as their native language. This is often a problem for IS teachers here.
Regarding the other obstacles you mentioned, I am aware of and partly agree with all of them. However, I don't think the experience I have is worthless. It says a lot about me as a professional and a school that ignores those types of things and relies on a list of requirements when hiring teachers is not really a place I want to be. What I am saying is that it can't hurt me. Put up against other inexperienced ESL teachers (and there are many), it makes me stand out. And a Master's in TESOL is nowhere near an 'introduction' to methods and pedagogy. Compared to my Bachelor's in Elementary Ed, the Master's required so much more in terms of time and mastery of content.
If you don't mind, I'd like your opinion on plan B (if nothing works out with ISS).
I'm considering moving back the states to get K-12 experience and work towards another subject certification. There are many good reasons to go back to the US first - my kids' English can catch up to their Korean, I can get all of my wife's immigration stuff done, and get the experience I need. I'm afraid, though, if we were to get settled in, we would find it hard to leave again.
My wife could be certified to teach Korean in less than a year. I have seen several openings for Korean too. So going home would provide her with some opportunities as well.
Thanks again!
Regarding the other obstacles you mentioned, I am aware of and partly agree with all of them. However, I don't think the experience I have is worthless. It says a lot about me as a professional and a school that ignores those types of things and relies on a list of requirements when hiring teachers is not really a place I want to be. What I am saying is that it can't hurt me. Put up against other inexperienced ESL teachers (and there are many), it makes me stand out. And a Master's in TESOL is nowhere near an 'introduction' to methods and pedagogy. Compared to my Bachelor's in Elementary Ed, the Master's required so much more in terms of time and mastery of content.
If you don't mind, I'd like your opinion on plan B (if nothing works out with ISS).
I'm considering moving back the states to get K-12 experience and work towards another subject certification. There are many good reasons to go back to the US first - my kids' English can catch up to their Korean, I can get all of my wife's immigration stuff done, and get the experience I need. I'm afraid, though, if we were to get settled in, we would find it hard to leave again.
My wife could be certified to teach Korean in less than a year. I have seen several openings for Korean too. So going home would provide her with some opportunities as well.
Thanks again!
Reply
@boatdrinks
I know you dont, Ive never met a teacher who didnt think they were special or that their experience was valuable. It doesnt say anything about your professionalism, because EVERY single person your in the room with can say the exact same thing, everyone your competing with is a professional.
ESOL teachers no, put you up against a room of other ESOL INSTRUCTORS and your a highly competitive candidate, but recruiters/admins arent hiring instructors, they are hiring teachers, and they have professional teaching credentials. Your not competitive at all even compared to entry level ESOL teachers. You have no grade level experience, no K-12 experience, and no teaching credentials.
Im sure your MA TESOL program was special and full of academic rigor, but that doesnt matter. Its the reputation that graduate TESOL degrees have. College grads go to some Asian country to teach English, find themselves there for several years and make a career out of it and want to move to University teaching and need a Masters degree to get a tertiary appointment. A MA TESOL degree supplies and introduction to educational theory, methodology and pedagogy for those without professional teaching experience.
PLAN B:
What subject certification would you be pursuing? Are you state certified in Elementary and ESOL in the state where you would return to in the USA? I ask because typically teachers to get a state certification require a field experience, which would require you to have some experience in K-12 education.
The biggest challenge facing you is the lack of demand for ESOL and elementary teachers, and with no experience your resume is going to be very lite. You could be waiting years before getting an offer.
Korean is a pretty rare vacancy in ISs their might be one or two a year, and youd need to combine it with either a primary teaching certificate in an immersion primary classroom or youd need to add another subject. There isnt enough demand at all but the largest ISs for a full time Korean position.
I know you dont, Ive never met a teacher who didnt think they were special or that their experience was valuable. It doesnt say anything about your professionalism, because EVERY single person your in the room with can say the exact same thing, everyone your competing with is a professional.
ESOL teachers no, put you up against a room of other ESOL INSTRUCTORS and your a highly competitive candidate, but recruiters/admins arent hiring instructors, they are hiring teachers, and they have professional teaching credentials. Your not competitive at all even compared to entry level ESOL teachers. You have no grade level experience, no K-12 experience, and no teaching credentials.
Im sure your MA TESOL program was special and full of academic rigor, but that doesnt matter. Its the reputation that graduate TESOL degrees have. College grads go to some Asian country to teach English, find themselves there for several years and make a career out of it and want to move to University teaching and need a Masters degree to get a tertiary appointment. A MA TESOL degree supplies and introduction to educational theory, methodology and pedagogy for those without professional teaching experience.
PLAN B:
What subject certification would you be pursuing? Are you state certified in Elementary and ESOL in the state where you would return to in the USA? I ask because typically teachers to get a state certification require a field experience, which would require you to have some experience in K-12 education.
The biggest challenge facing you is the lack of demand for ESOL and elementary teachers, and with no experience your resume is going to be very lite. You could be waiting years before getting an offer.
Korean is a pretty rare vacancy in ISs their might be one or two a year, and youd need to combine it with either a primary teaching certificate in an immersion primary classroom or youd need to add another subject. There isnt enough demand at all but the largest ISs for a full time Korean position.
Boatdrinks, considering your qualifications and experience in the field, you look very suited to Academic roles, but I think it will be difficult to get interviews due to lacking teaching certification and having no experience working with kids. You might get some offers at smaller fairs, but I think the ultra-competitive January Bangkok fair would be a disappointment for you.
In my opinion, any decent Masters in Education (including ESOL education) will be hard work, and I don't doubt you have learnt A LOT that will be applicable to classroom practice, but with you doing a PhD you come across as an ESOL specialist rather than someone who really wants to be in the regular classroom. Convincing people otherwise could be challenging.
There are lot of people in international schools who started out as language school ESL teachers (myself included) liked it, got certified and then moved into international school teaching. They can dress up their ESL experience to some extent by referring to their experience working with kids, and explaining how that endeared them to the profession, but without certification it's hard to get interviews in the first place. If you do get interviews, do you have any experience working with kids that you can draw on, because the question on everyone's mind will be, "You seem like an ESOL specialist, so why now turn to regular classroom teaching?".
You wrote, "I sub at a few schools here in Korea and live near another so I know that most of the students speak Korean as their native language. This is often a problem for IS teachers here". In every school I've worked in, and especially in the language schools I worked in many years ago, teachers have been strongly encouraged to ONLY speak in English. Whereas an understanding of linguistic structure may be beneficial, presenting your knowledge of Korean as a strength in interviews may go against you, especially in schools with a high population of Korean students. I will never forget what my first ESL school boss told me in Taiwan- "They're paying a lot of money because you speak English better than anyone here, so don't rob them by speaking to them with your Chinese". I guess he had a fair point.
It's interesting that you said about your wife teaching Korean. It was in another post recently that someone pointed out something along the lines of "Where there are a lot of Korean students, there are Korean cram schools nearby". I have personally seen these schools, and Koreans go there to learn extra Korean so as to continue to develop proficiency in their native language whilst living overseas, so if you're looking at other countries there could be something in that for you.
Hope this is helpful, or at least gives you a different perspective to draw on.
All the best.
In my opinion, any decent Masters in Education (including ESOL education) will be hard work, and I don't doubt you have learnt A LOT that will be applicable to classroom practice, but with you doing a PhD you come across as an ESOL specialist rather than someone who really wants to be in the regular classroom. Convincing people otherwise could be challenging.
There are lot of people in international schools who started out as language school ESL teachers (myself included) liked it, got certified and then moved into international school teaching. They can dress up their ESL experience to some extent by referring to their experience working with kids, and explaining how that endeared them to the profession, but without certification it's hard to get interviews in the first place. If you do get interviews, do you have any experience working with kids that you can draw on, because the question on everyone's mind will be, "You seem like an ESOL specialist, so why now turn to regular classroom teaching?".
You wrote, "I sub at a few schools here in Korea and live near another so I know that most of the students speak Korean as their native language. This is often a problem for IS teachers here". In every school I've worked in, and especially in the language schools I worked in many years ago, teachers have been strongly encouraged to ONLY speak in English. Whereas an understanding of linguistic structure may be beneficial, presenting your knowledge of Korean as a strength in interviews may go against you, especially in schools with a high population of Korean students. I will never forget what my first ESL school boss told me in Taiwan- "They're paying a lot of money because you speak English better than anyone here, so don't rob them by speaking to them with your Chinese". I guess he had a fair point.
It's interesting that you said about your wife teaching Korean. It was in another post recently that someone pointed out something along the lines of "Where there are a lot of Korean students, there are Korean cram schools nearby". I have personally seen these schools, and Koreans go there to learn extra Korean so as to continue to develop proficiency in their native language whilst living overseas, so if you're looking at other countries there could be something in that for you.
Hope this is helpful, or at least gives you a different perspective to draw on.
All the best.