Hi,
I'm still looking at various possibilities to get my teacher qualification. Besides a British PGCE I'm looking right now at the possibility of doing a Master's degree in Germany and would like to ask you for your opinion regarding its value.
A few words about teacher training in Germany in general: In Germany aspiring teachers need to study two subjects. They need to do a Bachelors (3y) and a Masters degree (+2y) covering subject specific knowledge as well as pedagogy. This is followed by a 1-1.5 year induction period at a school ("Referendariat"). Only after completing the induction period one is qualified as a teacher and eligible to work at public schools.
As I have a BA in Economics I could do a two year Masters covering more Economics as well as a second subject. In that case I would choose Maths (I would need to do additional credits in Maths equivalent to a year's study since I didn't take Maths during my undergraduate studies, but that's not the issue).
So my questions are this:
1) Would the German Master's without the completion of the induction period considered as a sufficient qualification to teach at IS (again, in Germany both have to be completed to be qualified to work as a teacher at a public school)?
2) Would the benefit in the form of the additional qualification in a second subject (i.e. Maths) outweigh the "cost" of the fact that it is not a anglo saxon qualification?
I'd appreciate any inputs from your side!
Thank you.
Recognition of German qualification in two subjects vs PGCE
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panta_rhei
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:46 am
Reply
Here is the rule "ONLY certification is certification". When a recruiter asks if your certified, any answer except "yes", is a "no". Degrees are not by themselves certified, and a mistake many newbies assume is that because ISs are mostly private schools and private schools in their home country can hire who they want regardless of certification, they equate having a degree in education (mostly a masters) as being the same as being certified, it does not. Here are some examples:
Recruiter: Are you certified?
Candidate: I have an education degree and spent 2 years of teaching english in Japan.
Translation: no
Candidate: I just completed my M.Ed in curriculum and instruction from Acme university, and integrated a common core standards in Genovia.
Translation: no
Candidate: I have a B.Ed from Canada.
Recruiter: Do you have a certificate issued by the provincial ministry of education?
Candidate: I did not pay my certification fee since leaving canada (or any other answer other then yes).
Translation: no
Candidate: I have an M.Ed and an IB Advance Certificate in Teaching and Learning Research.
Translation: no
Candidate: I have a NBCT certification.
Recruiter: Is your state certification current?
Candidate: It expired, and i didnt submit the PD to renew it.
Translation: no
Things become different when discussing a PGCE and QTS from the UK. The PGCE is the working credential for an IS. A school (mainly a top tier British School) may want full QTS status, and not just NQT.
Here is how your situation breaks down:
Recruiter: Are you certified to teach in a public/municipal school in Germany?
You: I have a masters degree and qualifications in dual subjects, but have not completed my field work needed for certification.
Translation: no
Would there be schools that would hire you, sure. Bottom tier schools in hardship regions will hire people without certification in hard to fill positions like math, etc. Upper tier schools just wont touch you, for accreditation purposes at a minimum. Hiring you, regardless of your resume classifies you as an "uncertified/unqualified teacher". You cant slide a copy of your degree into the stack of teaching credentials.
As for the second subject, i dont understand what you mean by it being a non anglo-saxon qualification? Math is math, it wouldnt matter if the foundation of your content preparation was done in europe or asia, or anywhere else. In some subjects such as Languages its makes a significant difference, but not math.
If your question is asking, does having a math background mitigate the lack of certification, then to reiterate the rule:
"ONLY certification is certification"
Again, schools where certification matters do not care what your education and background are. To schools that hire teachers without certification, having the background in math would increase your employment options. Economics at anything except a large school would only be part of a full schedule, adding math means a school can hire you as a math teacher, and give you a business or economics course in your schedule as well.
Recruiter: Are you certified?
Candidate: I have an education degree and spent 2 years of teaching english in Japan.
Translation: no
Candidate: I just completed my M.Ed in curriculum and instruction from Acme university, and integrated a common core standards in Genovia.
Translation: no
Candidate: I have a B.Ed from Canada.
Recruiter: Do you have a certificate issued by the provincial ministry of education?
Candidate: I did not pay my certification fee since leaving canada (or any other answer other then yes).
Translation: no
Candidate: I have an M.Ed and an IB Advance Certificate in Teaching and Learning Research.
Translation: no
Candidate: I have a NBCT certification.
Recruiter: Is your state certification current?
Candidate: It expired, and i didnt submit the PD to renew it.
Translation: no
Things become different when discussing a PGCE and QTS from the UK. The PGCE is the working credential for an IS. A school (mainly a top tier British School) may want full QTS status, and not just NQT.
Here is how your situation breaks down:
Recruiter: Are you certified to teach in a public/municipal school in Germany?
You: I have a masters degree and qualifications in dual subjects, but have not completed my field work needed for certification.
Translation: no
Would there be schools that would hire you, sure. Bottom tier schools in hardship regions will hire people without certification in hard to fill positions like math, etc. Upper tier schools just wont touch you, for accreditation purposes at a minimum. Hiring you, regardless of your resume classifies you as an "uncertified/unqualified teacher". You cant slide a copy of your degree into the stack of teaching credentials.
As for the second subject, i dont understand what you mean by it being a non anglo-saxon qualification? Math is math, it wouldnt matter if the foundation of your content preparation was done in europe or asia, or anywhere else. In some subjects such as Languages its makes a significant difference, but not math.
If your question is asking, does having a math background mitigate the lack of certification, then to reiterate the rule:
"ONLY certification is certification"
Again, schools where certification matters do not care what your education and background are. To schools that hire teachers without certification, having the background in math would increase your employment options. Economics at anything except a large school would only be part of a full schedule, adding math means a school can hire you as a math teacher, and give you a business or economics course in your schedule as well.
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panta_rhei
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:46 am
Hi PsyGuy,
Thanks a lot for the clarification regarding certification.
By being a non anglo-saxon qualification I did not refer to the Maths part only but to the Masters as a whole which includes Economics and education/pedagogy related courses. I had the impression that recruiters prefer anglo-saxon degrees/qualifications over others.
I think then my question will become the following:
Which of the following qualifications makes me more marketable - and possibly by what margin?
(i) English PGCE in Economics and Business Studies possibly incl. QTS
(ii) (i) + Masters from UK (either Education or possibly in subject within social sciences/humanities like History (in order to be able to teach one more subject outside Econ/BS))
(iii) Masters from Germany with additional qualification in Maths and incl. certification (i.e. incl. completed field work).
Thanks again for your input!
Thanks a lot for the clarification regarding certification.
By being a non anglo-saxon qualification I did not refer to the Maths part only but to the Masters as a whole which includes Economics and education/pedagogy related courses. I had the impression that recruiters prefer anglo-saxon degrees/qualifications over others.
I think then my question will become the following:
Which of the following qualifications makes me more marketable - and possibly by what margin?
(i) English PGCE in Economics and Business Studies possibly incl. QTS
(ii) (i) + Masters from UK (either Education or possibly in subject within social sciences/humanities like History (in order to be able to teach one more subject outside Econ/BS))
(iii) Masters from Germany with additional qualification in Maths and incl. certification (i.e. incl. completed field work).
Thanks again for your input!
I'm living in Germany at the moment and well...if you even slightly suspect you might return to Germany to teach in the national system you'll want to complete the German licensing process and yes it is a HUGE pain (watched a few friends go through it). I have other friends who are German and licensed through other countries (U.S. and U.K.) and it's very, very difficult to get their licenses recognized in Germany. One tried for over a year and gave up.
Reply
@panta_rhei
A lot of that depends on your resume, what you want to do and where you want to go?
If your looking at being an IT in the short term for a couple of years and then returning to germany and teaching in a regulated/municipal/public school then you need to complete the German requirments for a credential now or later. i can understand your apprehension, I dont know how many courses you would need to add a major in math to qualify for a German teaching qualification but depending on the university, and how the department sequences its courses, you could be looking at 2 years of study to complete the math courses. Add the additional year or so to complete your professional education program and a year to do your field work and your looking at a relatively long time to get qualified. A lot longer then needed if your going to make the IT profession a career.
The average program is a "year". A PGCE can be done in a year and you dont need to do QTS to teach at an international school unless your looking at top tier British schools. A PGDE (Australia) takes about a year as well in a similar program to a British PGCE. A B.Ed from Canada could take you a year (basically a 5th year program) assuming you have the right background. An American program though an ACP (alternative) program can be done in as fast as one semester, though a year is typical. Most PB (Post Bach) programs take about a year, but closer to 15 months is the average experience, depending on your background, and pre-requisites.
If your goal was to make IT a career, then what are you looking for?
Are you looking for a small german/european school to teach somewhere? German ISs do exist and they are usually small. Generic "european" ISs incorporate many elements similar to german schools, which would be marketable. That would be further incentive to go with your home countries German certification.
Are you looking more for a British school? If so a PGCE would certainly be more marketable and if you were looking to eventually move into a top tier school QTS makes you more marketable.
Are you just looking for a specific region or location, and that matters to you? Then really it doesnt matter your qualification because your going to be starting in bottom tier schools that arent that picky, and your experience is whats going to eventually move you up the tiers in that region.
Are you more interested in making it to an elite school and you dont care where it is? Then you might consider an American program thats fast, since the majority of elite schools tend to be 'American' schools, with american curriculum, etc.
A few clarifications for you. QTS and a PGCE does not certify you in a specific teaching subject. The PGCE gives you the academic preparation of pedagogy and methodology of teaching, and QTS gives you the practical field experience of applying it under mentor supervision. Your content qualification (subjects) you are typically considered qualified to teach are based on your degree and major.
In the UK few teachers outside of administrators pursue masters degrees. In the IE profession most experienced teachers who are around the 5 year mark have a Masters degree. A masters in a content subject has less marketability then an M.Ed. Unless you dont have an undergrad background in the teaching area, your undergraduate preparation is more then sufficient to teach through secondary and AP/IB/A levels. Second, most admins dont know how to evaluate content mastery, unless they themselves have a background in that subject. What they do know is the 'education' aspect of teaching, and most admins have an M.Ed so by virtue of membership, have a certain respect and understanding for an M.Ed.
As such adding a Masters in History isnt going to make you more marketable then any Masters would.
A lot of that depends on your resume, what you want to do and where you want to go?
If your looking at being an IT in the short term for a couple of years and then returning to germany and teaching in a regulated/municipal/public school then you need to complete the German requirments for a credential now or later. i can understand your apprehension, I dont know how many courses you would need to add a major in math to qualify for a German teaching qualification but depending on the university, and how the department sequences its courses, you could be looking at 2 years of study to complete the math courses. Add the additional year or so to complete your professional education program and a year to do your field work and your looking at a relatively long time to get qualified. A lot longer then needed if your going to make the IT profession a career.
The average program is a "year". A PGCE can be done in a year and you dont need to do QTS to teach at an international school unless your looking at top tier British schools. A PGDE (Australia) takes about a year as well in a similar program to a British PGCE. A B.Ed from Canada could take you a year (basically a 5th year program) assuming you have the right background. An American program though an ACP (alternative) program can be done in as fast as one semester, though a year is typical. Most PB (Post Bach) programs take about a year, but closer to 15 months is the average experience, depending on your background, and pre-requisites.
If your goal was to make IT a career, then what are you looking for?
Are you looking for a small german/european school to teach somewhere? German ISs do exist and they are usually small. Generic "european" ISs incorporate many elements similar to german schools, which would be marketable. That would be further incentive to go with your home countries German certification.
Are you looking more for a British school? If so a PGCE would certainly be more marketable and if you were looking to eventually move into a top tier school QTS makes you more marketable.
Are you just looking for a specific region or location, and that matters to you? Then really it doesnt matter your qualification because your going to be starting in bottom tier schools that arent that picky, and your experience is whats going to eventually move you up the tiers in that region.
Are you more interested in making it to an elite school and you dont care where it is? Then you might consider an American program thats fast, since the majority of elite schools tend to be 'American' schools, with american curriculum, etc.
A few clarifications for you. QTS and a PGCE does not certify you in a specific teaching subject. The PGCE gives you the academic preparation of pedagogy and methodology of teaching, and QTS gives you the practical field experience of applying it under mentor supervision. Your content qualification (subjects) you are typically considered qualified to teach are based on your degree and major.
In the UK few teachers outside of administrators pursue masters degrees. In the IE profession most experienced teachers who are around the 5 year mark have a Masters degree. A masters in a content subject has less marketability then an M.Ed. Unless you dont have an undergrad background in the teaching area, your undergraduate preparation is more then sufficient to teach through secondary and AP/IB/A levels. Second, most admins dont know how to evaluate content mastery, unless they themselves have a background in that subject. What they do know is the 'education' aspect of teaching, and most admins have an M.Ed so by virtue of membership, have a certain respect and understanding for an M.Ed.
As such adding a Masters in History isnt going to make you more marketable then any Masters would.
Comment
@CaliPro
The first issue is to define what you mean by a "British" IS? It can mean differnet things. Do you mean an IS that offers A levels, or a school with IGCSE? Is the school primary or secondary, or both? How high does secondary go?
What is the environment and atmosphere the school is trying to create, do they want to build and support as close to a British prep or boarding school, or are they just implementing the curriculum, and if so to what degree of formality?
British curriculum ISs are not prohibited from hiring teachers without experience/knowledge in the UK curriculum. The issue is really, "why would they"? The UK pedagogy and methodology can be trained and taught just as an AP/American or IB curriculum can be. Curriculum variances depend on the subject, but fundamental sciences such as Chemistry vary very little from other curriculums. Subjects like history focus more on european history as opposed to american history. The literary cannon is likewise weighted less on american authors, as you would expect from any national curriculum.
Like any admin or recruiter is going to need to know and convinced of is the same "what can you offer over other candidates" what value and advantages do you possess that would compensate for the lack of familiarity with the schools curriculum, pedagogy and methodology.
Have a good answer to that, and the nationality of the curriculum doesnt matter.
The first issue is to define what you mean by a "British" IS? It can mean differnet things. Do you mean an IS that offers A levels, or a school with IGCSE? Is the school primary or secondary, or both? How high does secondary go?
What is the environment and atmosphere the school is trying to create, do they want to build and support as close to a British prep or boarding school, or are they just implementing the curriculum, and if so to what degree of formality?
British curriculum ISs are not prohibited from hiring teachers without experience/knowledge in the UK curriculum. The issue is really, "why would they"? The UK pedagogy and methodology can be trained and taught just as an AP/American or IB curriculum can be. Curriculum variances depend on the subject, but fundamental sciences such as Chemistry vary very little from other curriculums. Subjects like history focus more on european history as opposed to american history. The literary cannon is likewise weighted less on american authors, as you would expect from any national curriculum.
Like any admin or recruiter is going to need to know and convinced of is the same "what can you offer over other candidates" what value and advantages do you possess that would compensate for the lack of familiarity with the schools curriculum, pedagogy and methodology.
Have a good answer to that, and the nationality of the curriculum doesnt matter.
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panta_rhei
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:46 am
@seashell
Thanks for sharing that. That's very valuable information!
@PsyGuy
Many thanks again for your elaborate answer!
With regards to what I want:
The thing is that right now I can't tell for sure how long I want to stay in international teaching. Yes, at the moment I can see myself doing it for a long time and possibly spending my entire (professional) life doing it, but if somehow possible I'd like to keep the option open of returning to Germany at some point in the future and to teach in the public school system.
School wise I see myself more in a school following IB curriculum or A-level/IGCSE and less likely in an American curriculum school. This is mostly because of two reasons: 1) My main subject is Economics which I think is of less significance in American curriculum schools than in the other two. 2) Because I might want to settle down at an International School back in Europe at some point in the future and IB and A-level would be more suitable for that. Though that is only based on my limited insight and does not mean I wouldn't consider working at an American School.
Location wise: Yes, location and quality of life is important to me. Yes, I also want to be at good/top schools, but the location has to be right and probably comes first. For me the preferred locations at the moment would be SEA, SA/CA and Southern Europe.
As you and seashell pointed out, the qualification process in Germany is rather lengthy. That's why I'm considering to go through it now, because if I decide to come back later - let's say maybe in ten+ years - it will be even more painful. If that possibility of me returning to Germany wouldn't be there, then no doubt I would straight go for the PGCE, possibly obtain QTS and try to find a placement.
Yes, overall the Masters part (it's basically a MEd equivalent with subject specialization) incl. the additional Maths courses would take me most probably 3 years. The field work (Referendariat) will take another 18months which overall would add up to 4.5 years. A damn long time for sure!
The advantages would be:
1) I have the option of coming back to Germany and teach in the public school system.
2) I have a second qualification in Maths which I think I would be enjoying teaching and which would make me more marketable.
Disadvantages:
1) Will take very long.
2) Fact that it is a German qualification would possibly make me less marketable in IT compared to having a PGCE or other anglo-saxon qualification.
So the crucial question for me at this point really is how many options would I have/ how marketable I would be after completing the German qualification with regards to IT (IB/A-levels). I would think that the fact that it is a German qualification would be a drawback. On the other hand the additional qualification in Maths should be a plus. But which of the two would predominate?
Thanks for sharing that. That's very valuable information!
@PsyGuy
Many thanks again for your elaborate answer!
With regards to what I want:
The thing is that right now I can't tell for sure how long I want to stay in international teaching. Yes, at the moment I can see myself doing it for a long time and possibly spending my entire (professional) life doing it, but if somehow possible I'd like to keep the option open of returning to Germany at some point in the future and to teach in the public school system.
School wise I see myself more in a school following IB curriculum or A-level/IGCSE and less likely in an American curriculum school. This is mostly because of two reasons: 1) My main subject is Economics which I think is of less significance in American curriculum schools than in the other two. 2) Because I might want to settle down at an International School back in Europe at some point in the future and IB and A-level would be more suitable for that. Though that is only based on my limited insight and does not mean I wouldn't consider working at an American School.
Location wise: Yes, location and quality of life is important to me. Yes, I also want to be at good/top schools, but the location has to be right and probably comes first. For me the preferred locations at the moment would be SEA, SA/CA and Southern Europe.
As you and seashell pointed out, the qualification process in Germany is rather lengthy. That's why I'm considering to go through it now, because if I decide to come back later - let's say maybe in ten+ years - it will be even more painful. If that possibility of me returning to Germany wouldn't be there, then no doubt I would straight go for the PGCE, possibly obtain QTS and try to find a placement.
Yes, overall the Masters part (it's basically a MEd equivalent with subject specialization) incl. the additional Maths courses would take me most probably 3 years. The field work (Referendariat) will take another 18months which overall would add up to 4.5 years. A damn long time for sure!
The advantages would be:
1) I have the option of coming back to Germany and teach in the public school system.
2) I have a second qualification in Maths which I think I would be enjoying teaching and which would make me more marketable.
Disadvantages:
1) Will take very long.
2) Fact that it is a German qualification would possibly make me less marketable in IT compared to having a PGCE or other anglo-saxon qualification.
So the crucial question for me at this point really is how many options would I have/ how marketable I would be after completing the German qualification with regards to IT (IB/A-levels). I would think that the fact that it is a German qualification would be a drawback. On the other hand the additional qualification in Maths should be a plus. But which of the two would predominate?
Discussion
@panta_rhei
I dont usually give directional advice (do this dont do that) I think Ive done that a couple times, Im going to do it again here.
Short answer, forget the German qualification. A 5 year qualification compared to a one year (average) qualification AND 4 years classroom experience wins every time in the IE profession.
You stated several times your interest in teaching in IGCSE/A levels and IB schools. A one year PGCE will give you the british background and the only thing thats going to really make you marketable in IB is IB experience in a classroom. Getting into that classroom, and banking the years of experience is going to be the only thing that matters. After 4 years of teaching a recruiter/admin isnt going to care about your qualification except to confirm you have one.
An IB teacher with 4 years experience in Business and Economics is much more marketable and competitive then a math teacher with no experience. Here is the rule "EXPERIENCE IS KING" upper tier schools will hire econ/business teachers with experience, they dont pursue teachers with no experience unless they have no other options, and they usually have options.
I dont usually give directional advice (do this dont do that) I think Ive done that a couple times, Im going to do it again here.
Short answer, forget the German qualification. A 5 year qualification compared to a one year (average) qualification AND 4 years classroom experience wins every time in the IE profession.
You stated several times your interest in teaching in IGCSE/A levels and IB schools. A one year PGCE will give you the british background and the only thing thats going to really make you marketable in IB is IB experience in a classroom. Getting into that classroom, and banking the years of experience is going to be the only thing that matters. After 4 years of teaching a recruiter/admin isnt going to care about your qualification except to confirm you have one.
An IB teacher with 4 years experience in Business and Economics is much more marketable and competitive then a math teacher with no experience. Here is the rule "EXPERIENCE IS KING" upper tier schools will hire econ/business teachers with experience, they dont pursue teachers with no experience unless they have no other options, and they usually have options.
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panta_rhei
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:46 am
Ok many thanks again for pointing it out.
Are you - or Seashell - by any chance familiar with the regulations in Germany with regards to teaching at private schools (both international and German schools, though I assume there shouldn't be a difference?)? Would PGCE/NQT status qualify me to teach there?
Are you - or Seashell - by any chance familiar with the regulations in Germany with regards to teaching at private schools (both international and German schools, though I assume there shouldn't be a difference?)? Would PGCE/NQT status qualify me to teach there?
Cooment
@panta_rhei
Private/International (Independent Schools) must apply for the Teaching permit from the ministry, on behalf of the teacher. There is no need for preparatory service (nor do you need dual subject areas). The German Education Ministry does not differentiate between NQT and QTS, neither replace/substitute for preparatory service. A Teacher Permit obtained in this way is only valid at the school that applied for it, though once the credentials have been evaluated they do not require re-evaluation upon subsequent applications by a different school.
The PGCE is generally accepted as sufficient education training. In such a case induction to obtain QTS would not give you any technical benefit.
Private/International (Independent Schools) must apply for the Teaching permit from the ministry, on behalf of the teacher. There is no need for preparatory service (nor do you need dual subject areas). The German Education Ministry does not differentiate between NQT and QTS, neither replace/substitute for preparatory service. A Teacher Permit obtained in this way is only valid at the school that applied for it, though once the credentials have been evaluated they do not require re-evaluation upon subsequent applications by a different school.
The PGCE is generally accepted as sufficient education training. In such a case induction to obtain QTS would not give you any technical benefit.
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panta_rhei
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Tue May 14, 2013 10:46 am
Comment
@panta_rhei
I know a couple teachers who had their certifications accepted outside Germany for teaching in a German Municipal school, and in both cases they were for foreign languages. I only know one teacher who was able to have their Japanese certification recognized to teach in the German municipal school system for a non language teaching position, and it was in Japanese Art Form, and it that case it was a special dispensation from the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Education.
I know a couple teachers who had their certifications accepted outside Germany for teaching in a German Municipal school, and in both cases they were for foreign languages. I only know one teacher who was able to have their Japanese certification recognized to teach in the German municipal school system for a non language teaching position, and it was in Japanese Art Form, and it that case it was a special dispensation from the Ministry of Culture and the Ministry of Education.