ADMINISTRATION is another important factor that I forgot to include in there. Although we cannot personally choose who we want to work with, it's always good to study the administration INFRASTRUCTURE as a whole. If they are a big school ( e.g. 2000 + students ), do they have the proper following factors to make sure that things run smoothly :
* A clear chain of command ( no vague " job descriptions " or " roles " - In other words, I would like to know that the Head and the principal clearly have strong, fair leadership and " backroom dealings " are not orchestrated by the secretary or janitor simply due to nepotism )
* High degree of accountability for BOTH the teacher and the administration ( as seen on contracts and the infrastructure )
* Clear departmental roles and divisions of labour : Example, the HR is strictly HR and has nothing to do with influencing the " hiring " process other than processing visa / work permit papers. In other words, principals and Heads have had enough years and insight to hire good, competent teachers without having to be swayed by HR ( who usually fall under the non-academic administration but the proprietorship, if the school is FOR PROFIT ).
Is this really a true reflection of Teaching Overseas?
Smaller schools can have a LOT that is right about them. I personally feel the Tier 1 focus is over-rated. I have worked at some great schools that are solid, truly international, have very good packages, and offer balance beaten work and life. I do not want to be a number at a really large, very "American" school. If I want that, I can work in the US. Be open, there are so many schools that are wonderful out there. I have always ended up at schools and locations I either had not considered or had not even heard of and all but one worked out wonderfully.
Although we cannot personally choose who we want to work with, it's always good to study the administration INFRASTRUCTURE as a whole. If they are a big school ( e.g. 2000 + students ), do they have the proper following factors to make sure that things run smoothly :
* A clear chain of command ( no vague " job descriptions " or " roles " - In other words, I would like to know that the Head and the principal clearly have strong, fair leadership and " backroom dealings " are not orchestrated by the secretary or janitor simply due to nepotism )
* High degree of accountability for BOTH the teacher and the administration ( as seen on contracts and the infrastructure )
* Clear departmental roles and divisions of labour : Example, the HR is strictly HR and has nothing to do with influencing the " hiring " process other than processing visa / work permit papers. In other words, principals and Heads have had enough years and insight to hire good, competent teachers without having to be swayed by HR ( who usually fall under the non-academic administration but the proprietorship, if the school is FOR PROFIT
Yes Mbovi - You are so right about this. A Newbie such as myself, really has to do their homework on this particular issue.
Applying for a teaching job overseas is so very different from applying to a school at home which might even be just down the road.
I have just turned an Overseas Post down because I simply couldn't be sure that the school infrastructure was as it ought to be. But it was still a very difficult decision, certainly not made lightly and in my mind there will always remain a lingering 'What if ...'
* A clear chain of command ( no vague " job descriptions " or " roles " - In other words, I would like to know that the Head and the principal clearly have strong, fair leadership and " backroom dealings " are not orchestrated by the secretary or janitor simply due to nepotism )
* High degree of accountability for BOTH the teacher and the administration ( as seen on contracts and the infrastructure )
* Clear departmental roles and divisions of labour : Example, the HR is strictly HR and has nothing to do with influencing the " hiring " process other than processing visa / work permit papers. In other words, principals and Heads have had enough years and insight to hire good, competent teachers without having to be swayed by HR ( who usually fall under the non-academic administration but the proprietorship, if the school is FOR PROFIT
Yes Mbovi - You are so right about this. A Newbie such as myself, really has to do their homework on this particular issue.
Applying for a teaching job overseas is so very different from applying to a school at home which might even be just down the road.
I have just turned an Overseas Post down because I simply couldn't be sure that the school infrastructure was as it ought to be. But it was still a very difficult decision, certainly not made lightly and in my mind there will always remain a lingering 'What if ...'
Part of point of my above posts is to highlight the difficulty of having accurate and up to date information about schools overseas. Those posting reviews on The Review bit of this Website have a serious responsibility in ensuring that their Review are accurate and as unbiased as is possible, because Newbies especially, will take them very seriously indeed.
Reply
So much happens in a few days.
First tier rankings are not determined by admins. Admins would LOVE nothing more (except this site disappearing) to banish the tier ranking system. The top tier schools could care less what a few disgruntled teachers have to say, and even the ones with a lot of disgruntled teachers, can simply afford (literally with money) to make their school attractive to teachers. The lower tier schools would LOVE not having to justify why their school isnt better or as good as another school. They would love to be able to sell their school on its "unique" qualities, without having conflicting information ruin the image they want to present.
Ive posted my discussion of the tier structure below for your review.
I dont rank administration as very important (though at any one time it is important), as Mbovi does. The reason being that a change ina demonstration or ownership can drastically change a school very quickly. policies that have worked for years can be rewritten, and new operation procedures can be created. ISs dont have the same burdens as municipal or public schools do, and typically have very little oversight. You cant plan for those things and when they happen a schools profile (tier can change very quickly), as such its difficult to make stable predictions and summaries based on such an unstable factor.
In regards to your original questions:
This site and many of the school review sites, are "dump" sites. ITs usually have very little recourse when things go bad at a school, usually the worst they can do is post a negative review. These reviews though represent a minority. If the school were truly that bad it would make real news, and things would change. Schools dont stay in business very long when their organizational practices effect the students and parents. What this site (and others) do is present the degree and scale of "issues/problems" with a school. How big that minority is and the depth of the issues is what you learn from the reviews and posts. There are elite schools like ASIJ that have negative reviews, and then their are schools in Kuwait, such as GEMS that have long and extensive negative reviews, but what their doing is what those schools want to be doing and they arent going to change. No matter what or how many negative reviews are posted from secular ITs they arent going to change the philosophy at QSI, for example.
You also need to evaluate a schools issues in context. For one teacher being paid on time is an absolute deal breaker, for a nother as long as its around the time they are supposed to be paid, its no big deal. You need to assess what matters to you, and what are your deal breakers. Some people would be fine with giving out A's and 7's to students for just showing upo. Some ITS would prefer to be left alone to teach what they want, others want more structure and continuity in the curriculum. Some want an admin whos a friendly "good" guy, some want a strong forceful leader.
Are ISs in meltdown? That really depends on what time scale your comparing them too and what metrics you use. A few observations, the IS market mirrors the general education market which mirrors the global and regional (many educators ignoir the regional economy) economy. When the economy is doing poorly, organizations send fewer personnel to overseas posts, meaning fewer students and reduced enrollments. Schools have a variety of mechanisms to implement, they can reduce tuition to attract more students from the region or open their enrollment to more local students. They can also (and this is the factor that is most often used by ITs) they can reduce compensation and packages, which some very visible schools have done. So if your using a very recent timeframe then a case could be made that schools in general are experiencing the same recessions that have effected the global economy.
Compared to 20-15 years ago the IS market has exploded however the number of companies with a globalized presence has exponentially grown. Back in the day the only need for an international school was to serve the students of a regions foreign diplomatic corp (embassy families) and a few executive (C title) families, It was a small population of people.
What has really effected the increase of ISs is what the definition of an IS is. In the past an IS was what we would refer to know as a top tier or elite school, and many of them are around and continue to prosper from that era as well. Where the big changes have happened is the increase of private independent schools that serve primarily local students and marketing their schools as providing an international experience. Couple this with the for-profit education business model, and you see school as profit/revenue centers and not the hollowed nobility of "academic education".
Ofsted has become a imperium, and it sucks. However that is happening everywhere. You may not have regulatory authorities looking over your shoulders or surprise inspections (though they do happen in some accreditation issues), however they are not insulation by the antics that can and do happen by ownership in ISs, and they happen much more frequently in the lower tier schools. They can be just as destructive, and as a teacher ina foreign country at a private/independent school you have little if any recourse or protections. When a school decides your "not a good fit any longer" your option is to typically take the plane ticket and leave. Few ITs have the resources for a legal battle, and even fewer still would be able to support themselves while doing so.
Everything beats RISS and ISHCMC, the only top tier school in Vietnam is the UN school in Hanoi, in HCMC the British school is the only 1st tier school.
I agree with buffalofan's review of St. Johns, however its in Thailand, and depending on whats important to you, suffering through work and your job/boss, puts you in the same boat as many people. We need to remember that work isnt our lives, its the thing we do so we can afford to do the things that make life worth living. This is why people and ITs in Japan will work for pretty poor packages outside the top tier schools, just so that they can live and be in Japan.
I wouldnt put Concordia in the 1st tier, and thats part of the issue, why there is no master list, their would be very, very, very little consensus in what tier banding a certain school is.
Schools such as ISB, WAB, SAS, ASIJ arent just 1st tier school they are usually called elite or premier schools.
In WE (Western Europe) you usually have until late spring before any notice you give is binding, in the rest of the world though ISs have a deadline in early november or October before you give a binding notice. Schools will begin to recruit for your position and the peak hiring time is Early January to Early February.
What follows is my discussion (as mentioned earlier) on the tier system:
There is no objective definition of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3, and as such there is no "master list" of who is in which list, and to that end even if there was no one would agree on it. Youd have some consensus with schools like WAB (Beijing), and ISB (Bangkok), but there would still be a lot of disagreement. Though if your on the international school circuit long enough you get a feel for which schools are at which tier. School quality also has a lot to do with where you are a tier 2 school in Hong Kong, might be a tier 1 school in mainland China...
There is no "definition" of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3. Its all subjective, in general when teachers describe a tier 1, etc school from one another it comes down to
1) Compensation package
2) Work environment.
Historically the compensation package is the priority, not because of greed or anything, but because its easy to quantify. If your in Brazil, $30K is better then $28K. Schools that pay more for a given region tend to have more stable finances (a sign of longevity, given enrollment, and reputation), and have larger endowments, meaning they have been around long enough to develop efficiency and have well planed capitol projects. Better schools can charge more in fees, and be more selective in their admissions. This creates more "cash" on hand for salaries and benefits.
COMPENSATION:
Typically includes (in this order of importance/priority:
1) Salary (based on number of contract or teaching hours per week)
2) Housing (including utility costs)
3) Tuition (If you have kids. In addition if you have a non teaching spouse, how easy is it for them to find a job)
4) Transportation (Including Airfare, moving, and settling in allowances).
5) Insurance (Mostly how good the medical is)
6) Retirement (Including end of year bonuses).
WORK ENVIRONMENT:
Working conditions is the far more subjective of the two. It means something slightly different to everyone. But can include as a general principal (and these get more "fuzzy" the lower I go):
1) Staff/Faculty/Parents:How qualified are your co teachers? Do they know what they are doing? Do the aids, secretaries try and help you? Is the PTA crazy helicopter parents? Are the parents really the ones running the school?
2) Admins Management Style: Biggest reason for a school to go down hill. Does the admin back the teachers? Are they just a spokesperson for the owners? Do they yield to parent pressure? Do they value faculty input? Do they care?
3) Organization: Does the front/back office run efficiently? Do you get reimbursed in a timely fashion? Are salaries paid on time? Is the school relationship with the local immigration bureau good, can they process visas, permits, etc quickly?
4) Resources: Do you have a projector? Access to computers, internet? Can you make copies when you need too. What about textbooks, are they old and out dated, do teachers even use them? Whats the library look like? Whats the cafeteria look like (do they feed the teacher lunch?) Do you have a classroom/department budget, or do you have to ask for everything?
5) Academics: Do they have a curriculum? Do they use the curriculum? Does the department share a common curriculum or does everybody teach what they know and prefer? What are the assessment/grading policies and procedures?
6) Community: Are the people nice, friendly, helpful? What's there too do in the area? Is it safe? Clean? Is transportation easily accessible? Availability of shopping/groceries? Medical Care? This could be a long one....
JOB SEARCH:
1st tier schools are typically non-profit private prepatory schools that focus on an international student body. They are very westernized, and would be very similar to a private school in western cultures.
2nd tier schools are private private non-profits that act like for profits. They are predominately domestic students, who are affluent. They are equivalent to a "good" public school in a western culture.
3rd tier schools are for profit schools that are run as business. The purpose is to make generate revenue, and provide the owner with some level of prestige and status. Education is just the product, the students parents just the consumers.
Most 3rd tier schools advertise on TIE Online, Joy Jobs, and with SEARCH. You can also find them on Daves ESL Cafe (They advertise everywhere, except the "selective" recruitment agencies, such as ISS)
Tier 3 schools either pay very well because the only reason someone would work there is the money, or they pay enough to get by. Most of these schools are in the middle east or africa. There are some very "beautiful" schools that Dante could use to deepen the levels of hell a bit, and the only reason they have faculty is because 1) The money, 2) Desperate teachers who cant do any better. Of course one issue that i see common with Tier 3 schools is related to "safety" either the regional culture is very very rigid, with serious consequences for what you might consider "minor rule infractions" or the region/area could become quickly hostile and dangerous...
Your typical "ESL School" is right around the border between tier 3 and tier 2 schools.
"Elite" (also called prestige or premier) schools are a subset of tier 1 schools, that represent the top school(s) in the region.
An "elite" or "premiere" international school is simply the top (or contested top) tier one school in a region (or city). What differentiates them is they usually have the best reputation in an area as "THE" school, and you see that in a compensation package that is substantially higher then the other tier one schools in the area, as well as in their staff support, resources, and facilities.
For example; ISB (Bangkok) is typically seen as the elite school in Bangkok. ISB (Beijing) is usually tied with WAB (Western Academy of Beijing) in Beijing/China. SAS (Singapore American School) is seen as the elite school in Singapore. ASP (Paris) is the elite school is France. IS Frankfurt is usually (lot of debate on this) considered the Elite school in Germany. ASIJ is well thought of as the elite school in Japan.
Tier status is only comparable to other schools within a region. Local economies, costs of living, cultural differences make global comparisons unhelpful. For example; most european schools dont provide housing, and taxes are high so even though salaries would rival many that you would find in a place like China, the savings potential and lifestyle you can live are very different (and often better in asia).
Elite (also called premier) doesnt equal easy. Elite schools typically expect a lot from their teachers. Some teachers thrive in that environment, some dont.
Why a separate category? well there is typically a substantial and significant increase in work and compensation between the "elite" school and the other tier one schools.
I guess thats 4 levels. is there a lower level, some people throw tier 4, and lower levels around, but i have to think that is really just an individual adding insult to injury when they call a particular school a "tier 4" school.
First tier rankings are not determined by admins. Admins would LOVE nothing more (except this site disappearing) to banish the tier ranking system. The top tier schools could care less what a few disgruntled teachers have to say, and even the ones with a lot of disgruntled teachers, can simply afford (literally with money) to make their school attractive to teachers. The lower tier schools would LOVE not having to justify why their school isnt better or as good as another school. They would love to be able to sell their school on its "unique" qualities, without having conflicting information ruin the image they want to present.
Ive posted my discussion of the tier structure below for your review.
I dont rank administration as very important (though at any one time it is important), as Mbovi does. The reason being that a change ina demonstration or ownership can drastically change a school very quickly. policies that have worked for years can be rewritten, and new operation procedures can be created. ISs dont have the same burdens as municipal or public schools do, and typically have very little oversight. You cant plan for those things and when they happen a schools profile (tier can change very quickly), as such its difficult to make stable predictions and summaries based on such an unstable factor.
In regards to your original questions:
This site and many of the school review sites, are "dump" sites. ITs usually have very little recourse when things go bad at a school, usually the worst they can do is post a negative review. These reviews though represent a minority. If the school were truly that bad it would make real news, and things would change. Schools dont stay in business very long when their organizational practices effect the students and parents. What this site (and others) do is present the degree and scale of "issues/problems" with a school. How big that minority is and the depth of the issues is what you learn from the reviews and posts. There are elite schools like ASIJ that have negative reviews, and then their are schools in Kuwait, such as GEMS that have long and extensive negative reviews, but what their doing is what those schools want to be doing and they arent going to change. No matter what or how many negative reviews are posted from secular ITs they arent going to change the philosophy at QSI, for example.
You also need to evaluate a schools issues in context. For one teacher being paid on time is an absolute deal breaker, for a nother as long as its around the time they are supposed to be paid, its no big deal. You need to assess what matters to you, and what are your deal breakers. Some people would be fine with giving out A's and 7's to students for just showing upo. Some ITS would prefer to be left alone to teach what they want, others want more structure and continuity in the curriculum. Some want an admin whos a friendly "good" guy, some want a strong forceful leader.
Are ISs in meltdown? That really depends on what time scale your comparing them too and what metrics you use. A few observations, the IS market mirrors the general education market which mirrors the global and regional (many educators ignoir the regional economy) economy. When the economy is doing poorly, organizations send fewer personnel to overseas posts, meaning fewer students and reduced enrollments. Schools have a variety of mechanisms to implement, they can reduce tuition to attract more students from the region or open their enrollment to more local students. They can also (and this is the factor that is most often used by ITs) they can reduce compensation and packages, which some very visible schools have done. So if your using a very recent timeframe then a case could be made that schools in general are experiencing the same recessions that have effected the global economy.
Compared to 20-15 years ago the IS market has exploded however the number of companies with a globalized presence has exponentially grown. Back in the day the only need for an international school was to serve the students of a regions foreign diplomatic corp (embassy families) and a few executive (C title) families, It was a small population of people.
What has really effected the increase of ISs is what the definition of an IS is. In the past an IS was what we would refer to know as a top tier or elite school, and many of them are around and continue to prosper from that era as well. Where the big changes have happened is the increase of private independent schools that serve primarily local students and marketing their schools as providing an international experience. Couple this with the for-profit education business model, and you see school as profit/revenue centers and not the hollowed nobility of "academic education".
Ofsted has become a imperium, and it sucks. However that is happening everywhere. You may not have regulatory authorities looking over your shoulders or surprise inspections (though they do happen in some accreditation issues), however they are not insulation by the antics that can and do happen by ownership in ISs, and they happen much more frequently in the lower tier schools. They can be just as destructive, and as a teacher ina foreign country at a private/independent school you have little if any recourse or protections. When a school decides your "not a good fit any longer" your option is to typically take the plane ticket and leave. Few ITs have the resources for a legal battle, and even fewer still would be able to support themselves while doing so.
Everything beats RISS and ISHCMC, the only top tier school in Vietnam is the UN school in Hanoi, in HCMC the British school is the only 1st tier school.
I agree with buffalofan's review of St. Johns, however its in Thailand, and depending on whats important to you, suffering through work and your job/boss, puts you in the same boat as many people. We need to remember that work isnt our lives, its the thing we do so we can afford to do the things that make life worth living. This is why people and ITs in Japan will work for pretty poor packages outside the top tier schools, just so that they can live and be in Japan.
I wouldnt put Concordia in the 1st tier, and thats part of the issue, why there is no master list, their would be very, very, very little consensus in what tier banding a certain school is.
Schools such as ISB, WAB, SAS, ASIJ arent just 1st tier school they are usually called elite or premier schools.
In WE (Western Europe) you usually have until late spring before any notice you give is binding, in the rest of the world though ISs have a deadline in early november or October before you give a binding notice. Schools will begin to recruit for your position and the peak hiring time is Early January to Early February.
What follows is my discussion (as mentioned earlier) on the tier system:
There is no objective definition of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3, and as such there is no "master list" of who is in which list, and to that end even if there was no one would agree on it. Youd have some consensus with schools like WAB (Beijing), and ISB (Bangkok), but there would still be a lot of disagreement. Though if your on the international school circuit long enough you get a feel for which schools are at which tier. School quality also has a lot to do with where you are a tier 2 school in Hong Kong, might be a tier 1 school in mainland China...
There is no "definition" of Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3. Its all subjective, in general when teachers describe a tier 1, etc school from one another it comes down to
1) Compensation package
2) Work environment.
Historically the compensation package is the priority, not because of greed or anything, but because its easy to quantify. If your in Brazil, $30K is better then $28K. Schools that pay more for a given region tend to have more stable finances (a sign of longevity, given enrollment, and reputation), and have larger endowments, meaning they have been around long enough to develop efficiency and have well planed capitol projects. Better schools can charge more in fees, and be more selective in their admissions. This creates more "cash" on hand for salaries and benefits.
COMPENSATION:
Typically includes (in this order of importance/priority:
1) Salary (based on number of contract or teaching hours per week)
2) Housing (including utility costs)
3) Tuition (If you have kids. In addition if you have a non teaching spouse, how easy is it for them to find a job)
4) Transportation (Including Airfare, moving, and settling in allowances).
5) Insurance (Mostly how good the medical is)
6) Retirement (Including end of year bonuses).
WORK ENVIRONMENT:
Working conditions is the far more subjective of the two. It means something slightly different to everyone. But can include as a general principal (and these get more "fuzzy" the lower I go):
1) Staff/Faculty/Parents:How qualified are your co teachers? Do they know what they are doing? Do the aids, secretaries try and help you? Is the PTA crazy helicopter parents? Are the parents really the ones running the school?
2) Admins Management Style: Biggest reason for a school to go down hill. Does the admin back the teachers? Are they just a spokesperson for the owners? Do they yield to parent pressure? Do they value faculty input? Do they care?
3) Organization: Does the front/back office run efficiently? Do you get reimbursed in a timely fashion? Are salaries paid on time? Is the school relationship with the local immigration bureau good, can they process visas, permits, etc quickly?
4) Resources: Do you have a projector? Access to computers, internet? Can you make copies when you need too. What about textbooks, are they old and out dated, do teachers even use them? Whats the library look like? Whats the cafeteria look like (do they feed the teacher lunch?) Do you have a classroom/department budget, or do you have to ask for everything?
5) Academics: Do they have a curriculum? Do they use the curriculum? Does the department share a common curriculum or does everybody teach what they know and prefer? What are the assessment/grading policies and procedures?
6) Community: Are the people nice, friendly, helpful? What's there too do in the area? Is it safe? Clean? Is transportation easily accessible? Availability of shopping/groceries? Medical Care? This could be a long one....
JOB SEARCH:
1st tier schools are typically non-profit private prepatory schools that focus on an international student body. They are very westernized, and would be very similar to a private school in western cultures.
2nd tier schools are private private non-profits that act like for profits. They are predominately domestic students, who are affluent. They are equivalent to a "good" public school in a western culture.
3rd tier schools are for profit schools that are run as business. The purpose is to make generate revenue, and provide the owner with some level of prestige and status. Education is just the product, the students parents just the consumers.
Most 3rd tier schools advertise on TIE Online, Joy Jobs, and with SEARCH. You can also find them on Daves ESL Cafe (They advertise everywhere, except the "selective" recruitment agencies, such as ISS)
Tier 3 schools either pay very well because the only reason someone would work there is the money, or they pay enough to get by. Most of these schools are in the middle east or africa. There are some very "beautiful" schools that Dante could use to deepen the levels of hell a bit, and the only reason they have faculty is because 1) The money, 2) Desperate teachers who cant do any better. Of course one issue that i see common with Tier 3 schools is related to "safety" either the regional culture is very very rigid, with serious consequences for what you might consider "minor rule infractions" or the region/area could become quickly hostile and dangerous...
Your typical "ESL School" is right around the border between tier 3 and tier 2 schools.
"Elite" (also called prestige or premier) schools are a subset of tier 1 schools, that represent the top school(s) in the region.
An "elite" or "premiere" international school is simply the top (or contested top) tier one school in a region (or city). What differentiates them is they usually have the best reputation in an area as "THE" school, and you see that in a compensation package that is substantially higher then the other tier one schools in the area, as well as in their staff support, resources, and facilities.
For example; ISB (Bangkok) is typically seen as the elite school in Bangkok. ISB (Beijing) is usually tied with WAB (Western Academy of Beijing) in Beijing/China. SAS (Singapore American School) is seen as the elite school in Singapore. ASP (Paris) is the elite school is France. IS Frankfurt is usually (lot of debate on this) considered the Elite school in Germany. ASIJ is well thought of as the elite school in Japan.
Tier status is only comparable to other schools within a region. Local economies, costs of living, cultural differences make global comparisons unhelpful. For example; most european schools dont provide housing, and taxes are high so even though salaries would rival many that you would find in a place like China, the savings potential and lifestyle you can live are very different (and often better in asia).
Elite (also called premier) doesnt equal easy. Elite schools typically expect a lot from their teachers. Some teachers thrive in that environment, some dont.
Why a separate category? well there is typically a substantial and significant increase in work and compensation between the "elite" school and the other tier one schools.
I guess thats 4 levels. is there a lower level, some people throw tier 4, and lower levels around, but i have to think that is really just an individual adding insult to injury when they call a particular school a "tier 4" school.
Comment
"Their" is possessive (the "I" in their means it belongs to "I", me).
"They're" is the conjunctive form for "they are". They're the best couple I have ever met. They are the best couple I ever met.
"There" is an adverb, typically used to denote location in space. Lets go over there. Put the box there. There is the place to get our car fixed.
"They're" is the conjunctive form for "they are". They're the best couple I have ever met. They are the best couple I ever met.
"There" is an adverb, typically used to denote location in space. Lets go over there. Put the box there. There is the place to get our car fixed.
Seriously, Psyguy
Spelling does count. Just get your "your" "you're" "their" "they're" "there" under control, please. One more point: it's "let's".
Discussion
No i dont, this isnt correspondence this is speaking and phonetically there is no difference between their, they're and there, they all sound the same.
I dont believe in apostrophes, their is not phonetic equivalent for an apostrophe.
I dont believe in apostrophes, their is not phonetic equivalent for an apostrophe.
This is speaking? Seems like writing to me.
Regarding tier rankings, whether admin is or is not important depends on whoever is posting and whether they feel it's important to them. I say this because (as mentioned in previous posts) there is no set criteria for deciding which school belongs in which tier. Unless a person gives a full breakdown of why they judge a school in a particular tier then we can only assume that we're on similar pages as far as the whole thing goes, but what's important for some may not be important for others and vice versa. For me, if the admin are scum bags with no integrity then I don't want to work there no matter how good the package is, so in my ranking, or when I refer to a school in a higher tier then I do so with a perception in mind that the admin are a positive example of professional conduct and integrity. Someone else might not even think about it and only consider the package and amount of work. I won't say what most think or feel because I have no way of knowing what's in the minds of others when they post.
Regarding tier rankings, whether admin is or is not important depends on whoever is posting and whether they feel it's important to them. I say this because (as mentioned in previous posts) there is no set criteria for deciding which school belongs in which tier. Unless a person gives a full breakdown of why they judge a school in a particular tier then we can only assume that we're on similar pages as far as the whole thing goes, but what's important for some may not be important for others and vice versa. For me, if the admin are scum bags with no integrity then I don't want to work there no matter how good the package is, so in my ranking, or when I refer to a school in a higher tier then I do so with a perception in mind that the admin are a positive example of professional conduct and integrity. Someone else might not even think about it and only consider the package and amount of work. I won't say what most think or feel because I have no way of knowing what's in the minds of others when they post.
Re: Discussion
[quote="PsyGuy"]No i dont, this isnt correspondence this is speaking and phonetically there is no difference between their, they're and there, they all sound the same.
I dont believe in apostrophes, their is not phonetic equivalent for an apostrophe.[/quote]
Oh my ( rolling eyes, wiping tears, guffawing ). Oh my. That's all I have to say.
I dont believe in apostrophes, their is not phonetic equivalent for an apostrophe.[/quote]
Oh my ( rolling eyes, wiping tears, guffawing ). Oh my. That's all I have to say.
Comment
@inman
I didnt write that it wasnt writing, I wrote it wasnt correspondence. I often text on my iphone, and post on Facebook, would you consider that writing or speaking? If you consider it writing, would use of terms such as LOL, and OMG subscribe to the conventions of any manual of style? Do facebook posts and timeline updates require adhesion to grammatical conventions such as apostrophes etc?
My students and coworkers widely disregarded and divergent approach to such conventions in these forms of media strongly suggest that they are not inappropriate.
@mbovi
Conventions change, how do you think they got to be conventions in the first place.
I didnt write that it wasnt writing, I wrote it wasnt correspondence. I often text on my iphone, and post on Facebook, would you consider that writing or speaking? If you consider it writing, would use of terms such as LOL, and OMG subscribe to the conventions of any manual of style? Do facebook posts and timeline updates require adhesion to grammatical conventions such as apostrophes etc?
My students and coworkers widely disregarded and divergent approach to such conventions in these forms of media strongly suggest that they are not inappropriate.
@mbovi
Conventions change, how do you think they got to be conventions in the first place.
Psyguy, that's right, you didn't write that it wasn't writing, nor did I argue that you did. Your post reads "this is speaking". I wrote "seems like writing to me". It still seems like writing to me.
However, your initial post reads "this isn't correspondence this is speaking" yet in your last post it reads "I didn't write that it wasn't writing, I wrote it wasn't correspondence". Your use of the words "write" and "wrote" contradict your argument that it is speaking, because for something to be written it needs to be done in writing.
However, your initial post reads "this isn't correspondence this is speaking" yet in your last post it reads "I didn't write that it wasn't writing, I wrote it wasn't correspondence". Your use of the words "write" and "wrote" contradict your argument that it is speaking, because for something to be written it needs to be done in writing.
***Before reading this, please note this is just my experience (although I have heard of others who have been treated badly and the ones that manage to stick around keep a low profile until they finish their contract and can move to a better school) :
First of all, none of the poorly managed international schools have anything to do with the current financial meltdown all over the world.
Also, if you think the educational system is bad
in the UK, USA, Australia etc.... do not think that it will neccesarily be better overseas.
I have worked at a few international schools were I enjoyed my time because I like experiencing new cultures.
But I have also had to deal (at times) with very wealthy students whose parents hold very important positions in their country and feel entitled to the point that if they don't like a grade you've given to their child- they WILL get it changed by admin.That is just the way it is and I have learned to just deal with it.
(Also, most international schools serve the elite of the country and that can be good and bad. The school facilities are super, you have lots of resources,small class sizes and your benefits (salary,etc...)allow you to live a better quality of life than in your own country and even save money. But will you be able to deal with the sense of entitlement that comes from some of these parents/students ? Will you be able to deal with a rich yet badly run school ? OR the school serves the elite of the country but for some odd reason you have terrible benefits, housing, few classroom resources, big class sizes etc even though the school charges sky high yearly tuition. Can you deal with that ?)
In any case, I have worked in a few international schools that lacked integrity or had other problems.
For example, among these schools: one director did not follow all the benefits I was supposed to receive so what are you going to do once you have already moved to xyz country (and this was a school linked to one of those overseas U.S. State Department Schools!), I worked at another school were many teachers were bitter (partially due to admin treating them badly and also many of these teachers acted like spoiled brats) hence the working environment was toxic , and recently I signed a contract LAST year with a school only to have the Director break the contract even before I could start the job thus THIS year I have yet to find another overseas teaching job !
As you can imagine, these types of situations can get really tiring after awhile for the overseas teacher.
Finally, you ask about how accurate the ISR and TES reviews are: well I think most are worth taking into consideration.
The ISR forum is also a good resource.
In addition, you have to do your own homework.
Really- sit in front of your computer and spend hours using search engines like Google to find out what you can about the school. Sometimes I accidently find expat/parent forums where parents tell each other the pros/cons about a particular school. Or there are other forums that you can sometimes find that talk about the school and are very helpful in finding out about why a school is good or bad.
People often say in this forum that the worst schools to work for are those owned by a local rich businessman/family of that country because they are for-profit schools.
I have worked for the so-called non-profit and for-profit schools and I have found that Directors from the UK and the USA in overseas schools can be just as bad as the locally family owned ones.
Also be aware that when you work overseas in these international schools-even those with the best benefits,salaries,housing, etc....you
really have no legal rights if a Director decides to terminate your contract for ridiculous reasons or because "he felt like it" even if you were a spectacular teacher.
Why ? Because you are not in your country where the Director would never be able to get away with half as much as he does overseas.
In the end, teaching overseas has become (in my opinion) more and more risky because there seems to be an increase in the lack of integrity by admin when it comes to following contracts or/and possibly falling on a Director with awful leadership skills.
I also think that such recruiters such as ISS and SEARCH are not always honest about some of these schools they represent as I know some teachers have reported to them schools with poor admin repeatedly and SEARCH and ISS continues to allow these types of shady schools to recruit at their fairs.
In the end it feels like it's all about the money from the recruiter's side which is why after attending a recruiting fair by both organizations I NEVER used them again. I use TIE or find my teaching jobs overseas by myself.
Keep in mind also that when you attend these recruiting fairs some Directors will recruit you by seeming to be genuine, nice, etc... but when you arrive in the country the reality is totally different.
Also if you see a school that keeps re-recruiting for a position around this time of year (or all year long)-then it could very well be a sign that the school has issues.
Last but not least, it really feels like finding a teaching job overseas at a GOOD school is like playing Russian roullette these last few years which is why I may take a break from teaching overseas and instead find an overseas career in a totally different field.
Hope my personal experiences help.
First of all, none of the poorly managed international schools have anything to do with the current financial meltdown all over the world.
Also, if you think the educational system is bad
in the UK, USA, Australia etc.... do not think that it will neccesarily be better overseas.
I have worked at a few international schools were I enjoyed my time because I like experiencing new cultures.
But I have also had to deal (at times) with very wealthy students whose parents hold very important positions in their country and feel entitled to the point that if they don't like a grade you've given to their child- they WILL get it changed by admin.That is just the way it is and I have learned to just deal with it.
(Also, most international schools serve the elite of the country and that can be good and bad. The school facilities are super, you have lots of resources,small class sizes and your benefits (salary,etc...)allow you to live a better quality of life than in your own country and even save money. But will you be able to deal with the sense of entitlement that comes from some of these parents/students ? Will you be able to deal with a rich yet badly run school ? OR the school serves the elite of the country but for some odd reason you have terrible benefits, housing, few classroom resources, big class sizes etc even though the school charges sky high yearly tuition. Can you deal with that ?)
In any case, I have worked in a few international schools that lacked integrity or had other problems.
For example, among these schools: one director did not follow all the benefits I was supposed to receive so what are you going to do once you have already moved to xyz country (and this was a school linked to one of those overseas U.S. State Department Schools!), I worked at another school were many teachers were bitter (partially due to admin treating them badly and also many of these teachers acted like spoiled brats) hence the working environment was toxic , and recently I signed a contract LAST year with a school only to have the Director break the contract even before I could start the job thus THIS year I have yet to find another overseas teaching job !
As you can imagine, these types of situations can get really tiring after awhile for the overseas teacher.
Finally, you ask about how accurate the ISR and TES reviews are: well I think most are worth taking into consideration.
The ISR forum is also a good resource.
In addition, you have to do your own homework.
Really- sit in front of your computer and spend hours using search engines like Google to find out what you can about the school. Sometimes I accidently find expat/parent forums where parents tell each other the pros/cons about a particular school. Or there are other forums that you can sometimes find that talk about the school and are very helpful in finding out about why a school is good or bad.
People often say in this forum that the worst schools to work for are those owned by a local rich businessman/family of that country because they are for-profit schools.
I have worked for the so-called non-profit and for-profit schools and I have found that Directors from the UK and the USA in overseas schools can be just as bad as the locally family owned ones.
Also be aware that when you work overseas in these international schools-even those with the best benefits,salaries,housing, etc....you
really have no legal rights if a Director decides to terminate your contract for ridiculous reasons or because "he felt like it" even if you were a spectacular teacher.
Why ? Because you are not in your country where the Director would never be able to get away with half as much as he does overseas.
In the end, teaching overseas has become (in my opinion) more and more risky because there seems to be an increase in the lack of integrity by admin when it comes to following contracts or/and possibly falling on a Director with awful leadership skills.
I also think that such recruiters such as ISS and SEARCH are not always honest about some of these schools they represent as I know some teachers have reported to them schools with poor admin repeatedly and SEARCH and ISS continues to allow these types of shady schools to recruit at their fairs.
In the end it feels like it's all about the money from the recruiter's side which is why after attending a recruiting fair by both organizations I NEVER used them again. I use TIE or find my teaching jobs overseas by myself.
Keep in mind also that when you attend these recruiting fairs some Directors will recruit you by seeming to be genuine, nice, etc... but when you arrive in the country the reality is totally different.
Also if you see a school that keeps re-recruiting for a position around this time of year (or all year long)-then it could very well be a sign that the school has issues.
Last but not least, it really feels like finding a teaching job overseas at a GOOD school is like playing Russian roullette these last few years which is why I may take a break from teaching overseas and instead find an overseas career in a totally different field.
Hope my personal experiences help.
Last edited by missy on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.