I looked at 3 schools currently advertising - School of Research Science, Dubai, Repton, Dubai and St Johns, Thailand - and the reviews on here are awful, really awful.
Even GEMS [a current advertiser] a huge organisation is rated badly.
I initially started applying in Vietnam and was offered 2 interviews [but only decided to interview for 1] and was duly offered the Post [still negotiating salary], but I probably shan't accept it because of things that are written on here and on TES.
Please tell me, is it because these are genuinely poor schools who are late advertisers, possibly having to re-recruit, or is it reflective of international schools generally?
And how do I know these Reviews are genuinely reflecting the true picture?
Is the International Teaching scene in meltdown due to world slump and recession, and I mean to imply more than just a dire world economy? After all, one of the reasons I want to abandon a successful teaching career in the UK is because I am so tired of the way government, Ofsted and SMTs are damaging the daily experience of teaching and learning. However, at least I do know that my salary will be paid and if I were to be treated unfairly or unlawfully, then I know I would be able seek assistance from any number of professional bodies.
Might I be about to condemn myself to untold misery, bullying and uncertain salary if I make the decision to leave my green and not so beloved land?
Is this really a true reflection of Teaching Overseas?
new schools
There are advantages and disadvantages to staying where you are or venturing out. A lot of new schools are opening and they are proprietary, ie for profit. Be careful of these schools because profit may override everything else like salaries, suplies, benefits etc. There are usually a small handful of tier one, two three schools in most big cities. Try to find a job at one of those or at least a not for profit school. Good luck.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Read the reviews carefully. Understand that everybody comes to it from a different point of view, different dynamics and a different stage in their career. What might be a dealbreaker for one person might not for another.
For example, I am not a GEMS fan, but I discussed the options of positions with GEMS in Dubai. It is not the worst school out there and not the best. But it it big, you can get IB experience, live in Dubai, and the kids are pretty good. Other people wouldn't touch it for the world.
If you are a person who feels you have to speak your mind about everything, you might run into problems. You won't have the same protection from the law which you are given in your home country. Also, you have no tenure, so as your contract ends your school is not obligated to renew it, or even give you a reason beyond, "We feel we need to change direction." Your legal recourse in many countries is nil.
As I said, take it all with a grain of salt, decide what you can and can't put up with and then take the plunge. Even teaching in a not-so-great international school often beats the pants off of teaching in the home country!
For example, I am not a GEMS fan, but I discussed the options of positions with GEMS in Dubai. It is not the worst school out there and not the best. But it it big, you can get IB experience, live in Dubai, and the kids are pretty good. Other people wouldn't touch it for the world.
If you are a person who feels you have to speak your mind about everything, you might run into problems. You won't have the same protection from the law which you are given in your home country. Also, you have no tenure, so as your contract ends your school is not obligated to renew it, or even give you a reason beyond, "We feel we need to change direction." Your legal recourse in many countries is nil.
As I said, take it all with a grain of salt, decide what you can and can't put up with and then take the plunge. Even teaching in a not-so-great international school often beats the pants off of teaching in the home country!
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
I have had friends who taught at GEMS and they were not anti-GEMS and didn't really put it down. It is what it is - a for profit school and a business (and ultimately, even the non-profits are businesses). You might have to put up with more stuffed-shirt requests and hoops to jump through, but nobody complained about the students and the parents, according to what my friends told me, were quite happy with the education their kids received. GEMS is an IB school system in many cases (some of their schools run ICGCSE and A level, apparently), and their students get into decent colleges.
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buffalofan
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:08 pm
I can only comment on St. Johns Thailand. This is a typical 3rd tier for-profit Thai school with Thai admin, nothing much 'international' about it despite the name. Good location & good facilities, but that's about it. These types of schools are a dime a dozen in Bangkok. Only for the desperate. You could do a lot better in SE Asia.
To just add to the above and clarify.
I am a newcomer to Teaching Overseas, however I am very serious about wanting to work in a reasonably good or very good school. I am an experienced teacher with a very good CV, PD etc. So I don't want to sell myself short on experience or salary and benefits. Also, I am not as young as I would like to be, but probably a good age for an experienced teacher wishing to make the break abroad.
It is fairly easy to work out the schools one should avoid, since their Reviews are numerous and consistently poor [and views on the Forum tend to back up the poor Reviews].
But it is much harder to know what schools are really good. Especially since I am Primary, and sometimes the focus tends to be on Secondary.
Thank you Shadowjack for your views on GEMS, they kind of concur with the research I have done and thus I think it might be an OK place to start a career abroad.
But mention of top tier, 2nd tier etc. is confusing, since I don't really know how these bandings are arrived at, I get the drift, but don't fully appreciate the story so to speak.
Thank you again. All advice is very valuable.
I am a newcomer to Teaching Overseas, however I am very serious about wanting to work in a reasonably good or very good school. I am an experienced teacher with a very good CV, PD etc. So I don't want to sell myself short on experience or salary and benefits. Also, I am not as young as I would like to be, but probably a good age for an experienced teacher wishing to make the break abroad.
It is fairly easy to work out the schools one should avoid, since their Reviews are numerous and consistently poor [and views on the Forum tend to back up the poor Reviews].
But it is much harder to know what schools are really good. Especially since I am Primary, and sometimes the focus tends to be on Secondary.
Thank you Shadowjack for your views on GEMS, they kind of concur with the research I have done and thus I think it might be an OK place to start a career abroad.
But mention of top tier, 2nd tier etc. is confusing, since I don't really know how these bandings are arrived at, I get the drift, but don't fully appreciate the story so to speak.
Thank you again. All advice is very valuable.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Tier schools are identified by a variety of factors (in no particular order):
1. School of choice for Western expats.
2. Salary and package
3. PD opportunities
4. Length of service of faculty
5. Facilities and resources
6. Leadership
These factors and more are weighed by prospective teachers.
For instance, in Shanghai, most people say Shanghai American School is a Tier 1 school. I would also argue, from what my friends have told me, that Concordia is also a Tier 1 school, although one with a religious bent (but not overboard religious).
In Beijing, WAB and ISB (I think it is ISB) are Tier 1 schools.
In Singapore, Singapore American School and United World College of South-East Asia would be the Tier 1 schools. In India, the AES (American Embassy School) is world-class. Each country and region has its Tier 1 schools - although what might be Tier 1 in Nepal, for instance, might not be near Tier 1 if it was plunked down in Singapore.
These schools are the most competitive schools to get to. If you are not up to snuff, you will finish your contract and move on, either by choice or by school choice (but in a nice way, for the most part).
Most teachers do not just start teaching at these places (although that is not 100% true), but serve their time in different schools and apply to the tier 1's (if that is what they want) as jobs arise during recruiting season.
One thing to keep in mind about international teaching - usually you have to give notice between early October and late November. For many schools, once you give notice, you are considered gone and they will work to fill your position. It is not like back home where you can look at leisure and give notice the half-term before you go (or April/May for N.A. school systems).
1. School of choice for Western expats.
2. Salary and package
3. PD opportunities
4. Length of service of faculty
5. Facilities and resources
6. Leadership
These factors and more are weighed by prospective teachers.
For instance, in Shanghai, most people say Shanghai American School is a Tier 1 school. I would also argue, from what my friends have told me, that Concordia is also a Tier 1 school, although one with a religious bent (but not overboard religious).
In Beijing, WAB and ISB (I think it is ISB) are Tier 1 schools.
In Singapore, Singapore American School and United World College of South-East Asia would be the Tier 1 schools. In India, the AES (American Embassy School) is world-class. Each country and region has its Tier 1 schools - although what might be Tier 1 in Nepal, for instance, might not be near Tier 1 if it was plunked down in Singapore.
These schools are the most competitive schools to get to. If you are not up to snuff, you will finish your contract and move on, either by choice or by school choice (but in a nice way, for the most part).
Most teachers do not just start teaching at these places (although that is not 100% true), but serve their time in different schools and apply to the tier 1's (if that is what they want) as jobs arise during recruiting season.
One thing to keep in mind about international teaching - usually you have to give notice between early October and late November. For many schools, once you give notice, you are considered gone and they will work to fill your position. It is not like back home where you can look at leisure and give notice the half-term before you go (or April/May for N.A. school systems).
"I am so tired of the way government, Ofsted and SMTs are damaging the daily experience of teaching and learning". I've heard a lot of this recently, and British teachers I work with don't paint a pretty picture of working in the UK. It sounds like Ofsted and SMT's are slowly taking everything that was ever pleasurable about teaching out of the job. The great thing about international schools though is that although many will claim to be be governed by presiding organizations or follow standards according to this or that government, there isn't really a lot of in your face scrutiny. Don't get me wrong, there are standards, but I feel that standards are chosen more by individual schools than any organization they belong to. That's why the unofficial top 10 - 20 international schools, or what you may read as being referred to as Top Teir schools are dotted around and seemingly random as far as location and curriculum are concerned.
If moving overseas is part of a career move, and you definitely do want to make sure that very high standards are upheld then I agree that you will need to choose your school very carefully. Even in many decent schools a lot of behaviour (from management and directors) goes on that just wouldn't be allowed in the UK. For profit schools that dominate the market and even in some of the best for profit schools, you have to accept that business decisions will sometimes take priority over what's best for the students. It's a reality of the job.
I wouldn't imagine that any of the schools you've listed so far would provide what you want. However, if you're looking at moving overseas as an opportunity to live in a different country, enjoy a different culture and still do a job that you once loved, and are flexible as what you might get out of career wise then your options increase massively. I've worked with people who have moved overseas expecting the same rights and conditions as at "home", and they get incredibly frustrated. Unless you get into a very, very good school, you will need to make compromises.
Regarding the teirs that you'll often read about, this is unofficial and kind of comes down to reputation based upon what people know about place, and things they hear about it from people working there. For example, from looking at the forum for a while, you'll get the pictures that ISB in Bangkok and Yokohama International School in Japan pay loads of money, have great conditions and are pretty much as high as you can go. Some have posted on here confirming that the standards are awesome, and others may know someone working there and have heard similar things. Gradually, you hear about these places more and more, and everyone hears the same things, so it becomes, unofficially, a top teir school. Then you'll hear names of other schools where it seems they have people leaving in droves complaining of unfair treatment, horrible bosses and no integrity. They become bottom end. There are a few posts on here that show top 10 lists from various posters, and comments that go with them. Have a search. There's some interesting choices, and it's no a coincidence that many of them have a few similar names. That's my perception of it all anyway.
To help your search, some schools that appear on top 10 lists are schools such as ISB Bangkok, JIS Jakarta, YIS Yokohama, WAB Beijing and AIS Shanghai.
Hope the information helps. All the best.
If moving overseas is part of a career move, and you definitely do want to make sure that very high standards are upheld then I agree that you will need to choose your school very carefully. Even in many decent schools a lot of behaviour (from management and directors) goes on that just wouldn't be allowed in the UK. For profit schools that dominate the market and even in some of the best for profit schools, you have to accept that business decisions will sometimes take priority over what's best for the students. It's a reality of the job.
I wouldn't imagine that any of the schools you've listed so far would provide what you want. However, if you're looking at moving overseas as an opportunity to live in a different country, enjoy a different culture and still do a job that you once loved, and are flexible as what you might get out of career wise then your options increase massively. I've worked with people who have moved overseas expecting the same rights and conditions as at "home", and they get incredibly frustrated. Unless you get into a very, very good school, you will need to make compromises.
Regarding the teirs that you'll often read about, this is unofficial and kind of comes down to reputation based upon what people know about place, and things they hear about it from people working there. For example, from looking at the forum for a while, you'll get the pictures that ISB in Bangkok and Yokohama International School in Japan pay loads of money, have great conditions and are pretty much as high as you can go. Some have posted on here confirming that the standards are awesome, and others may know someone working there and have heard similar things. Gradually, you hear about these places more and more, and everyone hears the same things, so it becomes, unofficially, a top teir school. Then you'll hear names of other schools where it seems they have people leaving in droves complaining of unfair treatment, horrible bosses and no integrity. They become bottom end. There are a few posts on here that show top 10 lists from various posters, and comments that go with them. Have a search. There's some interesting choices, and it's no a coincidence that many of them have a few similar names. That's my perception of it all anyway.
To help your search, some schools that appear on top 10 lists are schools such as ISB Bangkok, JIS Jakarta, YIS Yokohama, WAB Beijing and AIS Shanghai.
Hope the information helps. All the best.
Thank you Shadowjack and Inman
You really are a couple of stars and I cannot tell how much I appreciate the time you've taken to offer me advice and help. I have spent some time today looking around this website and I came across the Blog bit and there is some very useful specific advice about good and bad schools, benefits etc. And yes, the schools you mention are confirmed on there. It takes time to build up a picture and the 'tier' thing was really confusing, but it makes sense now you have explained it.
Yes, the UK situation is grim and getting grimmer of that there is no doubt. Such a lack of trust and respect for teachers and the workload just keeps going up and up and so much of it is not to do with teaching. But I am sure you have heard all this before!
My current school had an Ofsted Inspection, under the new Framework, at the beginning of the second week of the Autumn Term. We had only had the children back in school for 3 days! It was a nightmare for everyone! No one felt ready! No displays up, no targets in books, no Units of Work started [still doing induction activities], didn't know children individually etc. etc. And of course, all under the new Framework. No one really knew what 'The Agenda' would be. The Head in a complete state of terror since the School had been judged Satisfactory in last inspection and the new Ofsted means you can only get 'Good' or 'Not Satisfactory'. An awful 2 days. Crazy! And the poor children had to go through it too, only 3 days after meeting their new teacher, getting used to new routines and suddenly they find their teacher and TA complete gibbering idiots! Anyway we survived, thank goodness and got our 'Good'. And there you might think was an end to paranoia, at least for this academic year. Everyone can relax and enjoy Teaching and Learning. Oh no, of course not! Head has to keep everyone on their toes. Classroom Obs still happened a month later, as did the ON THE SPOT OBS and the Learning Walks etc. etc. etc. etc!
Oh yes, the UK is not a great place to be a teacher these days. Frozen pay, increased pension contributions for less pension and the very real possibility of Performance Related Pay now on the close horizon. What that will do to morale and recruitment is anyone's guess.
But having said all that, the worst thing about the UK at the moment is the weather!
You really are a couple of stars and I cannot tell how much I appreciate the time you've taken to offer me advice and help. I have spent some time today looking around this website and I came across the Blog bit and there is some very useful specific advice about good and bad schools, benefits etc. And yes, the schools you mention are confirmed on there. It takes time to build up a picture and the 'tier' thing was really confusing, but it makes sense now you have explained it.
Yes, the UK situation is grim and getting grimmer of that there is no doubt. Such a lack of trust and respect for teachers and the workload just keeps going up and up and so much of it is not to do with teaching. But I am sure you have heard all this before!
My current school had an Ofsted Inspection, under the new Framework, at the beginning of the second week of the Autumn Term. We had only had the children back in school for 3 days! It was a nightmare for everyone! No one felt ready! No displays up, no targets in books, no Units of Work started [still doing induction activities], didn't know children individually etc. etc. And of course, all under the new Framework. No one really knew what 'The Agenda' would be. The Head in a complete state of terror since the School had been judged Satisfactory in last inspection and the new Ofsted means you can only get 'Good' or 'Not Satisfactory'. An awful 2 days. Crazy! And the poor children had to go through it too, only 3 days after meeting their new teacher, getting used to new routines and suddenly they find their teacher and TA complete gibbering idiots! Anyway we survived, thank goodness and got our 'Good'. And there you might think was an end to paranoia, at least for this academic year. Everyone can relax and enjoy Teaching and Learning. Oh no, of course not! Head has to keep everyone on their toes. Classroom Obs still happened a month later, as did the ON THE SPOT OBS and the Learning Walks etc. etc. etc. etc!
Oh yes, the UK is not a great place to be a teacher these days. Frozen pay, increased pension contributions for less pension and the very real possibility of Performance Related Pay now on the close horizon. What that will do to morale and recruitment is anyone's guess.
But having said all that, the worst thing about the UK at the moment is the weather!
ON " TIERS " : This is a huge debatable issue. There is no written / standard document to define international schools around the world in terms of " Tier 1, 2, 3 ". The " tiers " are largely constructed by random administrators and educators dispersed around the globe upon reading forum posts. However, most international educators are aware of the " better " schools or the " not-so-great " schools. For lack of standard definition, people rely on this " tier definition ".
For instance, as a teacher who has been working in the international education sphere for 7 years now ( and has been luckily offered positions from " Tier 1 " schools during the first 0 - 2 years of my teaching career ), I can state that these are the following criteria that I PERSONALLY consider during applications.
1. ESTABLISHED ACCREDITATION & HISTORY : How long has the school been established with its accreditation ( preferably IB )?
2. PACKAGE : If the school is in a highly sought-after location ( e.g. Northern Europe or Europe in general, Tokyo-Japan, Singapore ), I look at how great the package is. For the most part, " Tier 1 " international schools will offer wonderful packages even if the location is amazing. Most " Tier 2 " or " Tier 3 " schools tend to offer HIGHLY attractive packages to compensate for the horrible location. However, with " Tier 1 " schools, the package is JUST ONE of the perks as they know their established reputation and having their names on your resume is enough to get your resume attractive to many employers.
* In terms of package, I look at the following ( apart from the salary ) :
a) Health and medical
b) Housing
c) Professional Development
Most good schools are generous with their packages for they can afford it.
3. STAFF TURNOVER
4. GLOBAL REPUTATION : I search for news articles, videos in the news, contributions to charities, role in global projects etc. I then go to websites such as ISR to view the ratings, comments etc ( with a grain of salt ). In other words, if the school is going to put the word " international " in their school names, I want to find out if they are TRULY international ( i.e. globally active, contributing, aware ),
5. POPULATION MAKEUP OF THE SCHOOL : Is it truly "international" ? Or is it a school that has a high concentration of very rich, elite nationals? There is nothing wrong with educating nationals ( in fact, in places like Japan, you would find that the national students are much more well-behaved, dilligent and academic with lovely, respectful, highly supportive parents ). However, I look for highly international populations bc the children would be offering many different cultural aspects and diversity into the classroom. Many of these students would also be " global nomads " ( i.e. children of parents who are globally mobile due to business or politics ).
If the school hits upon those 4 major criteria, then in MY eyes, I would say that school is a " Tier 1 " school....
But remember, that is just MY opinion....and MY opinion alone. Hence, the problem with the " Tier " system.
For instance, as a teacher who has been working in the international education sphere for 7 years now ( and has been luckily offered positions from " Tier 1 " schools during the first 0 - 2 years of my teaching career ), I can state that these are the following criteria that I PERSONALLY consider during applications.
1. ESTABLISHED ACCREDITATION & HISTORY : How long has the school been established with its accreditation ( preferably IB )?
2. PACKAGE : If the school is in a highly sought-after location ( e.g. Northern Europe or Europe in general, Tokyo-Japan, Singapore ), I look at how great the package is. For the most part, " Tier 1 " international schools will offer wonderful packages even if the location is amazing. Most " Tier 2 " or " Tier 3 " schools tend to offer HIGHLY attractive packages to compensate for the horrible location. However, with " Tier 1 " schools, the package is JUST ONE of the perks as they know their established reputation and having their names on your resume is enough to get your resume attractive to many employers.
* In terms of package, I look at the following ( apart from the salary ) :
a) Health and medical
b) Housing
c) Professional Development
Most good schools are generous with their packages for they can afford it.
3. STAFF TURNOVER
4. GLOBAL REPUTATION : I search for news articles, videos in the news, contributions to charities, role in global projects etc. I then go to websites such as ISR to view the ratings, comments etc ( with a grain of salt ). In other words, if the school is going to put the word " international " in their school names, I want to find out if they are TRULY international ( i.e. globally active, contributing, aware ),
5. POPULATION MAKEUP OF THE SCHOOL : Is it truly "international" ? Or is it a school that has a high concentration of very rich, elite nationals? There is nothing wrong with educating nationals ( in fact, in places like Japan, you would find that the national students are much more well-behaved, dilligent and academic with lovely, respectful, highly supportive parents ). However, I look for highly international populations bc the children would be offering many different cultural aspects and diversity into the classroom. Many of these students would also be " global nomads " ( i.e. children of parents who are globally mobile due to business or politics ).
If the school hits upon those 4 major criteria, then in MY eyes, I would say that school is a " Tier 1 " school....
But remember, that is just MY opinion....and MY opinion alone. Hence, the problem with the " Tier " system.
Mbovi, you are a hero. Thank you.
Indeed, I cannot thank any of you enough, most especially since having spent hours on this Website yesterday, I have discovered that many of the questions I posed have been asked many times before.
I think it is so sweet of you to take the time to respond personally, often at length, rather than referring me to the Search button!
Roll on tomorrow, hey!
At least the sun has shined on the UK this morning.
Indeed, I cannot thank any of you enough, most especially since having spent hours on this Website yesterday, I have discovered that many of the questions I posed have been asked many times before.
I think it is so sweet of you to take the time to respond personally, often at length, rather than referring me to the Search button!
Roll on tomorrow, hey!
At least the sun has shined on the UK this morning.
No problem, Portrait. Glad that I can help.
Anyway, in regards to another point or question you made on your original post about whether international education is on the decline due to global economic recession and such.
NO, THIS IS NOT THE CASE AT ALL : If anything, the international education sphere is the " face of modern 21st century education ". Think about it : In the 19th and 20th centuries, the education system was highly nationalistic due to global / historical realities of that time. There were wars ( times of poverty and uncertainty ), followed by surges of industrialisation that propelled countries to profit. Hence, at the time, the education systems in North America or Europe were all espousing the mantra of " Education for the nation ". But now, the reality is global mobility : Most of the highly educated are now globally mobile with business graduates looking abroad to work and develop economies like Asia, South East Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Hence, there is a growing need to DEVELOP and in fact, EVEN ENRICH the international education sphere ( Look at the Singapore example ). Around 10 - 20 years ago, no one would even look at Singapore as a hot spot for " education ". Now, in the 21st century, Singapore pops up as a " case study " for great educational systems and institutions ( especially the IB ).
Each international school is unique in its own way...but there is a general trend of the young, the highly educated, the new pioneers of the 21st century, moving and working abroad with their families in tow.
Anyway, in regards to another point or question you made on your original post about whether international education is on the decline due to global economic recession and such.
NO, THIS IS NOT THE CASE AT ALL : If anything, the international education sphere is the " face of modern 21st century education ". Think about it : In the 19th and 20th centuries, the education system was highly nationalistic due to global / historical realities of that time. There were wars ( times of poverty and uncertainty ), followed by surges of industrialisation that propelled countries to profit. Hence, at the time, the education systems in North America or Europe were all espousing the mantra of " Education for the nation ". But now, the reality is global mobility : Most of the highly educated are now globally mobile with business graduates looking abroad to work and develop economies like Asia, South East Asia, the Middle East and Africa. Hence, there is a growing need to DEVELOP and in fact, EVEN ENRICH the international education sphere ( Look at the Singapore example ). Around 10 - 20 years ago, no one would even look at Singapore as a hot spot for " education ". Now, in the 21st century, Singapore pops up as a " case study " for great educational systems and institutions ( especially the IB ).
Each international school is unique in its own way...but there is a general trend of the young, the highly educated, the new pioneers of the 21st century, moving and working abroad with their families in tow.
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overseasvet2
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 pm
While the tier question has been asked many times before, as a 15 year international school veteran, I find mbovi's explanation of a tier 1 school spot on. Interestingly the schools I pursued when going overseas for the first time are very different from locations I now consider desirable. The admin, professional development opportunities and school/home balance are more important to me than salary.
Diana
Diana