Curious- is there a demand for guidance counselors abroad?
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andybaxley86
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- Location: Seoul
Curious- is there a demand for guidance counselors abroad?
Hey everyone. The subject line pretty much sums it up. I don't really know specifically how IS operate- is there such a thing as an international school counselor, or do they generally tend to leave counseling responsibilities to the teachers? Thanks in advance for filling me in. If there are any counselors out there, I'd love to hear how you like your job!
Yes, ISs do have school counselors. Student/counselor ratios are usually much better than what they are in the States, which means more jobs per school. For a better idea, check the websites of schools you are thinking about. If you sign up for TIE, Search or ISS next year, there will probably be about 30-40 openings. If you have previous experience, I think there is a very good chance you would get several offers.
Oh, and I pretty much love my job most days. Work weeks fly by, and the compensation, benefits, vacations are amazing. Of course it's not like that for everyone though.
Oh, and I pretty much love my job most days. Work weeks fly by, and the compensation, benefits, vacations are amazing. Of course it's not like that for everyone though.
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andybaxley86
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:25 am
- Location: Seoul
[quote="nikkor"]Yes, ISs do have school counselors. Student/counselor ratios are usually much better than what they are in the States, which means more jobs per school. For a better idea, check the websites of schools you are thinking about. If you sign up for TIE, Search or ISS next year, there will probably be about 30-40 openings. If you have previous experience, I think there is a very good chance you would get several offers.
Oh, and I pretty much love my job most days. Work weeks fly by, and the compensation, benefits, vacations are amazing. Of course it's not like that for everyone though.[/quote]
Awesome, that's great to hear! I definitely want to live/work internationally, but at this point I'm feeling as though counseling may be more up my alley. I'm wondering, what part of the world are you in? And how much can counselors expect to earn there? Generally speaking, how much of the monthly salary are people able to save?
Oh, and I pretty much love my job most days. Work weeks fly by, and the compensation, benefits, vacations are amazing. Of course it's not like that for everyone though.[/quote]
Awesome, that's great to hear! I definitely want to live/work internationally, but at this point I'm feeling as though counseling may be more up my alley. I'm wondering, what part of the world are you in? And how much can counselors expect to earn there? Generally speaking, how much of the monthly salary are people able to save?
Reply
Savings really depends on what region and what tier of school your at. Places like WE have high taxes and no housing so savings are pretty low, likewise places like S/C America have low salaries to begin with so again saving are low. Asia and the ME are some of one of the best areas. Asia has low cost of living and all inclusive packages so most of your salary is discretionary. The ME doesnt have anything to really spend money on and also has all inclusive packages, so you can choose to travel or save.
ISs do indeed hire counselors. However its more a student management and junior admin position. Very little of it is focused on the mental health aspect.
The big demand is for counselors that can do college advising, and preferably have experience in a college/university admissions department.
Some counselors do have teaching duties, usually psychology or TOK. Sometimes you also see the counselor doing CAS, or another minor coordinator role.
ISs do indeed hire counselors. However its more a student management and junior admin position. Very little of it is focused on the mental health aspect.
The big demand is for counselors that can do college advising, and preferably have experience in a college/university admissions department.
Some counselors do have teaching duties, usually psychology or TOK. Sometimes you also see the counselor doing CAS, or another minor coordinator role.
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eion_padraig
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm
@andybaxley86
Based on some of your previous postings it looks like you would need to go and complete a MA in school counseling. There are some school counseling programs where you could do coursework online, but even those tend to have intensive onsite programs during the summer. There was one out of Colorado, and I had one former colleague who did a program in Massachusetts where she went two summers in a row (my understanding was she was doing online coursework during the school year).
To complete school counseling programs they usually have a 100 hour practicum (sometimes in school settings, though it can be in other counseling settings) requirement and a 500 hour internship requirement. The second requirement (500 hour internship) often means people have to spend a semester or more often a year doing an unpaid internships in schools. Sometimes you have to do half at one level (elementary) and half at another (high school), though that seems to be dictated by the state. I know people who were able to meet their hour requirements while teaching in a school, but usually this happens when there are unusually flexible administrators.
After going through one of these programs, you'll almost certainly want/need a school counseling credential from somewhere. In the US, each state has different requirements. Be aware that some US states still require a person to have a teaching credential and sometimes teaching experience to become a credentialed school counselor. In the past, this was a requirement in just about every US state, but now I think only 8 - 12 states have this requirement. Typically it's a 2 year program if you're doing it full-time.
So, school counselors are in high demand at international schools, but it's a pain to go through the training. I would agree with SighGuy that the bigger demand seems to be at the high school level where school counselors would be a bit more focused on college advising. However, there were still a lot of elementary and middle school counselor positions posted this year. There are small schools where 1 counselor works will all grade levels. The elementary school counseling positions are a bit more focused on collaboration with teacher, presenting large guidance sessions, and more individual counseling of students on behavioral issues related to school. It is still not heavy on the mental health aspect. Also, I didn't see any positions this year that specifically mentioned school counselors having teaching duties. I'm sure it happens at some schools. Certainly testing coordination for the PSAT, SAT is not uncommon.
I hope that gives you some idea of what pursuing that route to working in international schools would entail.
Based on some of your previous postings it looks like you would need to go and complete a MA in school counseling. There are some school counseling programs where you could do coursework online, but even those tend to have intensive onsite programs during the summer. There was one out of Colorado, and I had one former colleague who did a program in Massachusetts where she went two summers in a row (my understanding was she was doing online coursework during the school year).
To complete school counseling programs they usually have a 100 hour practicum (sometimes in school settings, though it can be in other counseling settings) requirement and a 500 hour internship requirement. The second requirement (500 hour internship) often means people have to spend a semester or more often a year doing an unpaid internships in schools. Sometimes you have to do half at one level (elementary) and half at another (high school), though that seems to be dictated by the state. I know people who were able to meet their hour requirements while teaching in a school, but usually this happens when there are unusually flexible administrators.
After going through one of these programs, you'll almost certainly want/need a school counseling credential from somewhere. In the US, each state has different requirements. Be aware that some US states still require a person to have a teaching credential and sometimes teaching experience to become a credentialed school counselor. In the past, this was a requirement in just about every US state, but now I think only 8 - 12 states have this requirement. Typically it's a 2 year program if you're doing it full-time.
So, school counselors are in high demand at international schools, but it's a pain to go through the training. I would agree with SighGuy that the bigger demand seems to be at the high school level where school counselors would be a bit more focused on college advising. However, there were still a lot of elementary and middle school counselor positions posted this year. There are small schools where 1 counselor works will all grade levels. The elementary school counseling positions are a bit more focused on collaboration with teacher, presenting large guidance sessions, and more individual counseling of students on behavioral issues related to school. It is still not heavy on the mental health aspect. Also, I didn't see any positions this year that specifically mentioned school counselors having teaching duties. I'm sure it happens at some schools. Certainly testing coordination for the PSAT, SAT is not uncommon.
I hope that gives you some idea of what pursuing that route to working in international schools would entail.
[/quote]Awesome, that's great to hear! I definitely want to live/work internationally, but at this point I'm feeling as though counseling may be more up my alley. I'm wondering, what part of the world are you in? And how much can counselors expect to earn there? Generally speaking, how much of the monthly salary are people able to save?[/quote]
Since you asked, I'm in Asia. It varies between schools so much that it's probably not even helpful to have the info. Counselors (same salary as teachers) can expect to make between 20-75,000+ USD or equivalent, sometimes this is tax free and in addition you will be provided with housing (valued at 60K/yr), flights(2k), retirement(10%), PD(2k), shipping/settling in etc.
At the great schools in Asia (IASIS.asia schools, just for starters), there are plenty of singles out there saving 35K+, but where it really gets good is for the teaching couples who can bank over 100K.
Since you asked, I'm in Asia. It varies between schools so much that it's probably not even helpful to have the info. Counselors (same salary as teachers) can expect to make between 20-75,000+ USD or equivalent, sometimes this is tax free and in addition you will be provided with housing (valued at 60K/yr), flights(2k), retirement(10%), PD(2k), shipping/settling in etc.
At the great schools in Asia (IASIS.asia schools, just for starters), there are plenty of singles out there saving 35K+, but where it really gets good is for the teaching couples who can bank over 100K.
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andybaxley86
- Posts: 20
- Joined: Mon Mar 25, 2013 9:25 am
- Location: Seoul
Thank you everyone!
Thank you so much for the advice everyone. I am actually very excited about the idea of going back to school for a counseling degree. It seems to be a perfect fit with my interests and talents. I absolutely love planning for the future, whether it be my own or someone elses, so I think I will feel right at home in the position. Once I finish my current contract in Korea, my next step will be to move back to CO to do an MA in school counseling. My primary concern right now is that I may have lost my in-state status, having spent so much time abroad in recent years. I may need to spend a year working in Colorado to re-establish residency. That wouldn't be the end of the world, but it definitely isn't preferable either. In any case, I should be able to finish up a degree no later than my 31st birthday. This is later than I wanted to be finishing with grad school, but such is life!
Anyway, many many thanks to you all. I'm sure I'll be back sooner or later to post additional questions. I look forward to the day that I can answer some as well!
Anyway, many many thanks to you all. I'm sure I'll be back sooner or later to post additional questions. I look forward to the day that I can answer some as well!
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eion_padraig
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm
Goodl luck with your plans.
A few last things, I would recommend a CACREP accredited school counseling program if you can choose between different CO schools. They give you more flexibility when it comes to credentials in different US states, and you may find Colorado isn't the best place to have your credential when you go overseas.
You might be okay with the residency, especially if you lived there just prior to leaving the US.
One problem my counseling program had was limited space for the 100 hour practicum. Counseling students sometimes had to wait an extra semester or two to start it, which was a real problem for the full time students. I don't know that this is a common problem with other programs, but it may be. I was only doing the program part, so it didn't cause me any trouble.
A few last things, I would recommend a CACREP accredited school counseling program if you can choose between different CO schools. They give you more flexibility when it comes to credentials in different US states, and you may find Colorado isn't the best place to have your credential when you go overseas.
You might be okay with the residency, especially if you lived there just prior to leaving the US.
One problem my counseling program had was limited space for the 100 hour practicum. Counseling students sometimes had to wait an extra semester or two to start it, which was a real problem for the full time students. I don't know that this is a common problem with other programs, but it may be. I was only doing the program part, so it didn't cause me any trouble.
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bilinguallearner
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Hi Andy,
Yes, I would definitely say there is a demand for counselors abroad, but I don't know how much mental health counseling you'd be doing. I also belong to another forum, ASCA Groupshare, which is powered by the American School Counselors Assoc and there has been a lot of posts there on this topic and many international school counselors have weighed in. Check out the Groupshare forum if you haven't yet- it's awesome! When I taught abroad, we had a VERY busy school counselor.
Good luck in your search!
Stephanie
Check out the new post with super links to diversity guidance lessons at www.bilinguallearner.com/-blog!
Yes, I would definitely say there is a demand for counselors abroad, but I don't know how much mental health counseling you'd be doing. I also belong to another forum, ASCA Groupshare, which is powered by the American School Counselors Assoc and there has been a lot of posts there on this topic and many international school counselors have weighed in. Check out the Groupshare forum if you haven't yet- it's awesome! When I taught abroad, we had a VERY busy school counselor.
Good luck in your search!
Stephanie
Check out the new post with super links to diversity guidance lessons at www.bilinguallearner.com/-blog!
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vettievette
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:31 am
I echo most of everyone's statements though I'd be hesitant to downplay the mental health aspect of the job - depending on what position you choose get. I work in K-12 and handle the social/emotional support while our college counselor deals with the apps and SATs, etc. As a licensed social worker, I came from a mental health background before moving overseas. Though I consider the individual sessions I do now as "therapy light", the background knowledge of mental health has been exceedingly useful in developing classroom guidance lessons on social emotional learning and helping interpret psychological reports, etc. when submitting my portion of the IEPs. It has also been helpful in helping admin/teachers determine what situations need to be referred out right away and are beyond our scope of being able to help students. It all depends on the needs of the school and which division you end up working in.
Discussion
@vettievette
Technology skills would also be "very useful" for a counselor but like the mental health aspect they dont make the priority list of tasking duties. Even in the ISs that are heavy on the mental health aspect (municipal schools for instance) the mental health duties miniscule to those back in an inner city public school setting. Outside of SPED the mental health component is almost exclusively intervention, and in such a case its identification and referral. Scheduling weekly or biweekly therapy sessions with students to discuss mental health issues and problems just doesnt happen.
We are after all talking about what is essentially a psychology degree here, and with even a minimal amount of expertise youd be able to identify a problem and make a referral.
Weve had this discussion before, outside of your country of licensure, unless you specifically seek licensure in the country your IS is, you are not a licensed mental health profession.
Technology skills would also be "very useful" for a counselor but like the mental health aspect they dont make the priority list of tasking duties. Even in the ISs that are heavy on the mental health aspect (municipal schools for instance) the mental health duties miniscule to those back in an inner city public school setting. Outside of SPED the mental health component is almost exclusively intervention, and in such a case its identification and referral. Scheduling weekly or biweekly therapy sessions with students to discuss mental health issues and problems just doesnt happen.
We are after all talking about what is essentially a psychology degree here, and with even a minimal amount of expertise youd be able to identify a problem and make a referral.
Weve had this discussion before, outside of your country of licensure, unless you specifically seek licensure in the country your IS is, you are not a licensed mental health profession.
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vettievette
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:31 am
@PsyGuy
It all depends on what your school needs. In my school I am doing twice weekly sessions or weekly individual on top of guidance/advisory lessons, etc and the occasional one and done spot check. We are in a place where we cannot refer out for services during the school year - there are no reliable outside services for testing/therapy. We usually advise kids go home in the summer or holidays for testing, etc. then we work based on the advice of those professionals who send assessments back.
The most extreme cases are definite immediate referrals out, but those are few and far between. I am also fully aware that this situation is due to our location. I [i]know[/i] it would not be this extensive in another school setting that has access to referral resources. My caseload of these kids who get the individual work is definitely not as big as what I would've had back home, but if you put it on top of everything else the job entails...I feel like I should be wearing a rocket pack all day. :)
It all depends on what your school needs. In my school I am doing twice weekly sessions or weekly individual on top of guidance/advisory lessons, etc and the occasional one and done spot check. We are in a place where we cannot refer out for services during the school year - there are no reliable outside services for testing/therapy. We usually advise kids go home in the summer or holidays for testing, etc. then we work based on the advice of those professionals who send assessments back.
The most extreme cases are definite immediate referrals out, but those are few and far between. I am also fully aware that this situation is due to our location. I [i]know[/i] it would not be this extensive in another school setting that has access to referral resources. My caseload of these kids who get the individual work is definitely not as big as what I would've had back home, but if you put it on top of everything else the job entails...I feel like I should be wearing a rocket pack all day. :)
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interteach
- Posts: 214
- Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 pm
When it comes to dealing with issues regarding people, PsyGuy gets it wrong again. And again.
School counselors overseas work with usually a larger amount of problem-focused emotional/behavioral issues than their counterparts in host countries due to language issues and lack of providers. In many countries, issues that may be referred out in a home country environment are handled in house due to lack of community resources as long as the counselor knows the issue does not go beyond their ability.
The counselors at our school say they prefer working overseas since they get to do more actual counseling than they would get to do in the US but they hate it when they come up against a serious issue they can't handle and can't refer out with much hope of success.
Any international school that asks counselors to manage students is a substandard school. No wonder that's PsyGuy's view of the job.
School counselors overseas work with usually a larger amount of problem-focused emotional/behavioral issues than their counterparts in host countries due to language issues and lack of providers. In many countries, issues that may be referred out in a home country environment are handled in house due to lack of community resources as long as the counselor knows the issue does not go beyond their ability.
The counselors at our school say they prefer working overseas since they get to do more actual counseling than they would get to do in the US but they hate it when they come up against a serious issue they can't handle and can't refer out with much hope of success.
Any international school that asks counselors to manage students is a substandard school. No wonder that's PsyGuy's view of the job.
Disscussion
@interteach
No your just wrong and Your comment shows a definite lack of cultural understanding. The vast majority of ISs have few if any mental health problems, and most of your comments and arguments represent an American disposition.
Many cultures just dont deal with mental health the way american and other western countries do. Just because you thing there is a mental health issue, that a student should have therapy and talk about doesnt mean its appropriate for that culture. In the vast number of asian cultures you dont discuss problems to outsiders, its an issue of face. You talk to a friend or close family member.
Language issues are more a problem for overseas counselors, they seldom have the fluency to discuss complex affective and cognitive issues with a foreigner, and the reverse is true of the students who seldom have the english fluency to discuss their feeling and problems with mental health professional.
The majority of ISs and students are well adjusted young people, who simply dont have the issues of SEC, etc that form the locust of so many problems facing mental health professionals in schools back in western countries.
Regarless of your opinion, most day to day tasking duties of a counselor are student management, which does include behavior management, and even that is "minor".
@vettievette
I can agree that workloads do vary based on location and acess to resources, but even rural areas simply dont have the case workload and severity of initial referral/complaint as a public/municipal school in a western region. ISs are by nature private schools with well resourced and adjusted students. Your location may be more mental health intensive then say at a large tier 1 or elite school ina major city but its a negligible difference to say an inner city public school in LAX. Its not apples and oranges its Apple Pie, to Apple Inc. (makers of the iPhone). The differences between ISs may be visible but they are negligible.
No your just wrong and Your comment shows a definite lack of cultural understanding. The vast majority of ISs have few if any mental health problems, and most of your comments and arguments represent an American disposition.
Many cultures just dont deal with mental health the way american and other western countries do. Just because you thing there is a mental health issue, that a student should have therapy and talk about doesnt mean its appropriate for that culture. In the vast number of asian cultures you dont discuss problems to outsiders, its an issue of face. You talk to a friend or close family member.
Language issues are more a problem for overseas counselors, they seldom have the fluency to discuss complex affective and cognitive issues with a foreigner, and the reverse is true of the students who seldom have the english fluency to discuss their feeling and problems with mental health professional.
The majority of ISs and students are well adjusted young people, who simply dont have the issues of SEC, etc that form the locust of so many problems facing mental health professionals in schools back in western countries.
Regarless of your opinion, most day to day tasking duties of a counselor are student management, which does include behavior management, and even that is "minor".
@vettievette
I can agree that workloads do vary based on location and acess to resources, but even rural areas simply dont have the case workload and severity of initial referral/complaint as a public/municipal school in a western region. ISs are by nature private schools with well resourced and adjusted students. Your location may be more mental health intensive then say at a large tier 1 or elite school ina major city but its a negligible difference to say an inner city public school in LAX. Its not apples and oranges its Apple Pie, to Apple Inc. (makers of the iPhone). The differences between ISs may be visible but they are negligible.
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interteach
- Posts: 214
- Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:25 pm
Your privilege is showing PsyGuy.
Attending an expensive private school doesn't act as an inoculation against mental health issues. Minor issues crop up all the time, and when it comes to major mental illness where the causes often have a genetic link - well, your assertions just become as offensive as misinformed.
As in international school veteran here are some of the issues I've had brought to my attention from school counselors: major depression, bipolar disorder, eating disorders, borderline personality disorder, OCD, Tourrettes, Asperger's, and even early schizophrenia. Yeah, this is just student management. International counselors don't treat these, but they sure do play a role in helping these students. And then they often have to deal with less-serious problems that are still very serious and their rich parents don't want to hear about. Just like you, it seems.
Your cultural comments also show a neglect for the large number of western kids in international schools and ignorance the TCK tendencies of host-country kids.
I can just see you at a faculty meeting, "Oh no. This problem isn't real. These kids have money and they go to an international school. That means they don't have problems."
Just why do you teach?
Attending an expensive private school doesn't act as an inoculation against mental health issues. Minor issues crop up all the time, and when it comes to major mental illness where the causes often have a genetic link - well, your assertions just become as offensive as misinformed.
As in international school veteran here are some of the issues I've had brought to my attention from school counselors: major depression, bipolar disorder, eating disorders, borderline personality disorder, OCD, Tourrettes, Asperger's, and even early schizophrenia. Yeah, this is just student management. International counselors don't treat these, but they sure do play a role in helping these students. And then they often have to deal with less-serious problems that are still very serious and their rich parents don't want to hear about. Just like you, it seems.
Your cultural comments also show a neglect for the large number of western kids in international schools and ignorance the TCK tendencies of host-country kids.
I can just see you at a faculty meeting, "Oh no. This problem isn't real. These kids have money and they go to an international school. That means they don't have problems."
Just why do you teach?