[quote]In common usage QTS refers to a teacher that has completed Induction, and NQT refers to a teacher who has not successfully completed.[/quote]
Not in any of the UK schools or international schools I've worked in or currently work at Psyguy. Everyone has seemed well aware that you get QTS at the end of your PGCE (you even get a certificate saying congratulations on gaining QTS after finishing your pgce, is that clear enough for you?).
There are a a LOT of factual errors in your postings. I don't have time to correct them all, it would take too long. I simply urge others to be very wary of believing anything this person types. Check it all out for yourself from legitimate sources!!!
The tes forum is much better for getting accurate information, not unmoderated hearsay from out of touch people like this.
[quote]a traditional PGCE is almost exclusively academic work[/quote]
More absolute nonsense!
...at least pgrass knows the score.
TEFL Courses, first-timer
Comment
@Jimbo
No its not. There isnt a single experienced (even new educator) that confuses the QTS obtained after your PGCE with completing induction, thats just wrong.
Really simple, the QTS obtained after your PGCE doesnt "qualify" you to do anything in the public school system except complete induction. Until then your an NQT, after successful induction and the NQT is removed all that remains is your QTS, and thats whats referred to as having QTS.
The only other thing you can do is work at an independent school. Which is why the PGCE is the working professional qualification at an IS.
So if my explanation is s flawed, what do you call the difference between QTS prior to induction and post induction? Lets review some GLARING issues:
1) You can not teach in a regulated school (public/municipal) school in the UK until you successfully complete induction. That is HUGE professional bar to pass. if you cant FREELY perform the duties and job that your "qualified" for then how is it a qualification?
If i have a drivers license that doesnt let me drive when and where I want (as long as its not some pathological example like driving a tank to Buckingham Palace), then its not much of a drivers license. If i have alicense to practice medicine, BUT can only do so ina teaching hospital under the supervison of an instruction professor/doctor, its not much of a medical license. I cant say "HAHA so long suckers, Im going to open of my own office and clinic in downtown London".
2) You can FAIL induction. If you are unsuccessful during induction and fail you can NEVER repeat induction, and can never teach in a regulated school in the UK. How do you justify that condition in a practicing professional qualification.
If I fail my drivers license probation period, just because they dont physically take the license away from me, I still cant legally drive.
Whatever you call it "QTS confirmation", or "Removing NQT" or whatever term/word you use to describe the difference, their is still a VERY SIGNIFICANT difference between pre induction and post induction QTS. It doesnt matter how you spin the vocabulary your not changing the real differences.
Ive discussed many times what a qualified teacher is with colleagues, and one definition is that qualified means you can be employed as a professional teacher in the municipal/public/government schools of issuing credentials country. You cant really do that with NQT.
The only teachers/educators that "insist" the QTS of a NQT is the same as one who has completed induction and removed the NQT are those who havent or failed to do so. I strongly advise consult the authoritative sources if they wish confirmation, as posted earlier (http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/st ... troduction).
No its not. There isnt a single experienced (even new educator) that confuses the QTS obtained after your PGCE with completing induction, thats just wrong.
Really simple, the QTS obtained after your PGCE doesnt "qualify" you to do anything in the public school system except complete induction. Until then your an NQT, after successful induction and the NQT is removed all that remains is your QTS, and thats whats referred to as having QTS.
The only other thing you can do is work at an independent school. Which is why the PGCE is the working professional qualification at an IS.
So if my explanation is s flawed, what do you call the difference between QTS prior to induction and post induction? Lets review some GLARING issues:
1) You can not teach in a regulated school (public/municipal) school in the UK until you successfully complete induction. That is HUGE professional bar to pass. if you cant FREELY perform the duties and job that your "qualified" for then how is it a qualification?
If i have a drivers license that doesnt let me drive when and where I want (as long as its not some pathological example like driving a tank to Buckingham Palace), then its not much of a drivers license. If i have alicense to practice medicine, BUT can only do so ina teaching hospital under the supervison of an instruction professor/doctor, its not much of a medical license. I cant say "HAHA so long suckers, Im going to open of my own office and clinic in downtown London".
2) You can FAIL induction. If you are unsuccessful during induction and fail you can NEVER repeat induction, and can never teach in a regulated school in the UK. How do you justify that condition in a practicing professional qualification.
If I fail my drivers license probation period, just because they dont physically take the license away from me, I still cant legally drive.
Whatever you call it "QTS confirmation", or "Removing NQT" or whatever term/word you use to describe the difference, their is still a VERY SIGNIFICANT difference between pre induction and post induction QTS. It doesnt matter how you spin the vocabulary your not changing the real differences.
Ive discussed many times what a qualified teacher is with colleagues, and one definition is that qualified means you can be employed as a professional teacher in the municipal/public/government schools of issuing credentials country. You cant really do that with NQT.
The only teachers/educators that "insist" the QTS of a NQT is the same as one who has completed induction and removed the NQT are those who havent or failed to do so. I strongly advise consult the authoritative sources if they wish confirmation, as posted earlier (http://www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/st ... troduction).
So, you agree with me now that you were wrong about PGCE's being mainly academic qualifications? Superb. Next...
From your own trusted link:
"While NQTs are encouraged to start their induction as soon as possible [u][b]after gaining qualified teacher status (QTS), [/b][/u]there is no set time limit for starting or completing an induction period."
Notice that is [u]after [/u]gaining qualified teacher status, to me that confirms that you have it already even before you do an induction year!!!
"If i have a drivers license that doesnt let me drive when and where I want (as long as its not some pathological example like driving a tank to Buckingham Palace), then its not much of a drivers license."
You can apply for pretty much any teaching job where and when you want once you have your QTS from your PGCE. You could:
1. Work for a government school. They would then put you through their probationary year/NQT.
2. Work for an independent school/international school. They may well then have their own form of probatiobary period and ongoing training.
3. FE, academies, free schools, etc.. same again.
Completing an induction year [u]does not open up any extra options to you [/u]as a teacher. It does show you have achieved a certain level of competence for an extended period of time, but working for an independent school and gaining good references and completing their probation would do a similar thing.
Therefore, to my mind, claiming that you are not a qualified teacher and don't have QTS until you complete a government induction year makes no sense.
There are so many routes into teaching, and so many career paths within it, that using the state school induction year to say whether someone has QTS or not whilst being a very easy method, is simply not accurate.
You have QTS once you complete your PGCE and after that it is up to you what you do with it. Work for a state school if you want, work for an independent school, go international, you hold QTS there is nothing stopping you pursuing any of those routes.IMHO.
"You can not teach in a regulated school (public/municipal) school in the UK until you successfully complete induction."
Of course you can, because state schools automatically enter you onto the induction year so you ARE free to apply to teach anywhere, once you have the QTS from your PGCE.
"Really simple, the QTS obtained after your PGCE doesnt "qualify" you to do anything in the public school system except complete induction. Until then your an NQT, after successful induction and the NQT is removed all that remains is your QTS, and thats whats referred to as having QTS. "
Wrong, that is what YOU refer to as having QTS. There are other people in this world and you cannot speak for all of them.
I'm not overly bothered by the debate regarding QTS/NQT etc.. what I am bothered about is you stating your opinions as facts. This has the potential to mislead people which is not fair.
From your own trusted link:
"While NQTs are encouraged to start their induction as soon as possible [u][b]after gaining qualified teacher status (QTS), [/b][/u]there is no set time limit for starting or completing an induction period."
Notice that is [u]after [/u]gaining qualified teacher status, to me that confirms that you have it already even before you do an induction year!!!
"If i have a drivers license that doesnt let me drive when and where I want (as long as its not some pathological example like driving a tank to Buckingham Palace), then its not much of a drivers license."
You can apply for pretty much any teaching job where and when you want once you have your QTS from your PGCE. You could:
1. Work for a government school. They would then put you through their probationary year/NQT.
2. Work for an independent school/international school. They may well then have their own form of probatiobary period and ongoing training.
3. FE, academies, free schools, etc.. same again.
Completing an induction year [u]does not open up any extra options to you [/u]as a teacher. It does show you have achieved a certain level of competence for an extended period of time, but working for an independent school and gaining good references and completing their probation would do a similar thing.
Therefore, to my mind, claiming that you are not a qualified teacher and don't have QTS until you complete a government induction year makes no sense.
There are so many routes into teaching, and so many career paths within it, that using the state school induction year to say whether someone has QTS or not whilst being a very easy method, is simply not accurate.
You have QTS once you complete your PGCE and after that it is up to you what you do with it. Work for a state school if you want, work for an independent school, go international, you hold QTS there is nothing stopping you pursuing any of those routes.IMHO.
"You can not teach in a regulated school (public/municipal) school in the UK until you successfully complete induction."
Of course you can, because state schools automatically enter you onto the induction year so you ARE free to apply to teach anywhere, once you have the QTS from your PGCE.
"Really simple, the QTS obtained after your PGCE doesnt "qualify" you to do anything in the public school system except complete induction. Until then your an NQT, after successful induction and the NQT is removed all that remains is your QTS, and thats whats referred to as having QTS. "
Wrong, that is what YOU refer to as having QTS. There are other people in this world and you cannot speak for all of them.
I'm not overly bothered by the debate regarding QTS/NQT etc.. what I am bothered about is you stating your opinions as facts. This has the potential to mislead people which is not fair.
Comment
No, i do not agree with you, a PGCE is mostly acadamic.
Its not a theory, a traditional PGCE is almost exclusively academic work with some observations and demonstrations. A PGCE program can also be a school centered or school direct training program which have an increased emphasis and focus on practical skills and applied knowledge. These programs however dont appeal and arent feasible to those pursuing IS education, someone taking a PGCE trough online or distance learning isnt going to have the proximity to complete those type os "school centered" programs, they are going to be interested in programs that they dont have to constantly travel or make other arrangements to complete. In my experience the majority of British teachers working in ISs had very traditional academic PGCE programs.
You do not remove your NQT status until AFTER you succesfully complete your induction year, hence you are an NQT until you do and do not retain full QTS until you do.
Applying for a teaching position is not equivilent to being hired for one. Even so the induction period is not a "free to be hired anywhere" license.
No you cant work for a regulated school ACCEPT when undergoing induction. Otherwise thank you for agreeing with me on being able to work in an independent (private) school. The reality is you dont even need a PGCE to work in an independent school.
Yes, completing induction opens up options in that it removes your NQT status and permits you to work in any regulated school. If you FAIL induction you cant work in a regulated school.
The only people who argue induction is meaningless are those who have not completed it. Have you successfully completed your induction training year?
While it makes no sense in your mind, we do not share minds.
Yes there is something stoping you, failing induction prohibits you from working in a regulated school and does not remove your NQT status.
If schools agree to provide your induction otherwise they dont hire you, and make no mistake a signifigant number of schools are not interested in NQTs.
No i can speak for them, as these terms AND THEIR USE are regarded as common terminology. This is not as esoteric debate on the meaning of "is".
However, your not really qualified because you are no longer legally able to work as a teacher in a relevant school. A school can easily determine if a teacher has failed induction. At an IS, a recruiter and admin would have serious concerns about employing a teacher who did not successfully complete induction. However, technically, they would still be able to work legally in a independent school, which is why the working credential for a UK trained teacher is the PGCE.
In the UK system the term "NQT" is used to refer to a teacher that has not completed induction, and QTS is used to refer to a teacher that has successful. Regardless of the technical inaccuracy those are the terms of common usage. if a recruiter at a IS British school asks if you have QTS they are asking if youve completed induction, not if you have the QTS awarded upon successfully completing your PGCE. Answering "yes I have QTS" when you haven't completed induction would be at best considered naive, and at worst would be fraud.
While this isnt directly related to NQT and QTS status, PGCE's are available at a number of universities outside the UK in such places as Singapore, Thailand, Hong Kong, etc, and such programs offer options that are almost entirely academic. This is in addition to PGCE programs in Europe, etc.
A PGCEi (Post Graduate Certificate of Education-International) is a "limited" PGCE, its a university academic certificate of one year. It doesnt give you NQT and your not eligible for induction with one, and you cant earn QTS without induction. You would be better off doing a one year M.Ed, for what marketability a PGCEi would give you, but the program/certificate is new, and it would be irresponsible to claim how its going to work in the future, especially in the IS market.
Its not a theory, a traditional PGCE is almost exclusively academic work with some observations and demonstrations. A PGCE program can also be a school centered or school direct training program which have an increased emphasis and focus on practical skills and applied knowledge. These programs however dont appeal and arent feasible to those pursuing IS education, someone taking a PGCE trough online or distance learning isnt going to have the proximity to complete those type os "school centered" programs, they are going to be interested in programs that they dont have to constantly travel or make other arrangements to complete. In my experience the majority of British teachers working in ISs had very traditional academic PGCE programs.
You do not remove your NQT status until AFTER you succesfully complete your induction year, hence you are an NQT until you do and do not retain full QTS until you do.
Applying for a teaching position is not equivilent to being hired for one. Even so the induction period is not a "free to be hired anywhere" license.
No you cant work for a regulated school ACCEPT when undergoing induction. Otherwise thank you for agreeing with me on being able to work in an independent (private) school. The reality is you dont even need a PGCE to work in an independent school.
Yes, completing induction opens up options in that it removes your NQT status and permits you to work in any regulated school. If you FAIL induction you cant work in a regulated school.
The only people who argue induction is meaningless are those who have not completed it. Have you successfully completed your induction training year?
While it makes no sense in your mind, we do not share minds.
Yes there is something stoping you, failing induction prohibits you from working in a regulated school and does not remove your NQT status.
If schools agree to provide your induction otherwise they dont hire you, and make no mistake a signifigant number of schools are not interested in NQTs.
No i can speak for them, as these terms AND THEIR USE are regarded as common terminology. This is not as esoteric debate on the meaning of "is".
However, your not really qualified because you are no longer legally able to work as a teacher in a relevant school. A school can easily determine if a teacher has failed induction. At an IS, a recruiter and admin would have serious concerns about employing a teacher who did not successfully complete induction. However, technically, they would still be able to work legally in a independent school, which is why the working credential for a UK trained teacher is the PGCE.
In the UK system the term "NQT" is used to refer to a teacher that has not completed induction, and QTS is used to refer to a teacher that has successful. Regardless of the technical inaccuracy those are the terms of common usage. if a recruiter at a IS British school asks if you have QTS they are asking if youve completed induction, not if you have the QTS awarded upon successfully completing your PGCE. Answering "yes I have QTS" when you haven't completed induction would be at best considered naive, and at worst would be fraud.
While this isnt directly related to NQT and QTS status, PGCE's are available at a number of universities outside the UK in such places as Singapore, Thailand, Hong Kong, etc, and such programs offer options that are almost entirely academic. This is in addition to PGCE programs in Europe, etc.
A PGCEi (Post Graduate Certificate of Education-International) is a "limited" PGCE, its a university academic certificate of one year. It doesnt give you NQT and your not eligible for induction with one, and you cant earn QTS without induction. You would be better off doing a one year M.Ed, for what marketability a PGCEi would give you, but the program/certificate is new, and it would be irresponsible to claim how its going to work in the future, especially in the IS market.
It's very late but...
Dave, you can't keep saying stuff like this, when it is patently nonsense:
"Its not a theory, a traditional PGCE is almost exclusively academic work with some observations and demonstrations."
Anyone who has ever done a PGCE in the UK will tell you this is absurd. Even thirty years ago when I did my PGCE, there was a four week teaching practice in the first term and an eight week teaching practice in the third term. If anything, there is more emphasis on teaching practice now than there was in my day.
I know you hate to be on the losing end of an argument, but simply to continue blurting out the same junk because a) you believe that by having the last word that will validate what you say and b) you can't bear the thought of losing face on this forum is just stupid behavior.
"Its not a theory, a traditional PGCE is almost exclusively academic work with some observations and demonstrations."
Anyone who has ever done a PGCE in the UK will tell you this is absurd. Even thirty years ago when I did my PGCE, there was a four week teaching practice in the first term and an eight week teaching practice in the third term. If anything, there is more emphasis on teaching practice now than there was in my day.
I know you hate to be on the losing end of an argument, but simply to continue blurting out the same junk because a) you believe that by having the last word that will validate what you say and b) you can't bear the thought of losing face on this forum is just stupid behavior.
PGCE Teaching practice
PGCE 14 years ago - 2x12 week teaching practices plus several 2 week induction and enrichment programmes in schools. Just my two cents (or pence)!!
Psyguy, I am actually quite happy to acknowledge what you say about QTS/NQT. We both have valid points and are perhaps right in our own ways based on our own different experiences.
Can you accept that I am right in some of my opinions I wonder and therefore shouldn't be posting as though you know everything? Again this is my real point, there is often more than one correct answer and many different views, not everything in life is simply black and white IMHO.
By acknowledging and perhaps re-evaluating your own ideas you gain credibility, by shouting people down and not acknowledging/refusing to adjust you lose it. This is especially so when there are other teachers out there who have been through the PGCE/QTS/NQT process (as I have) and feel on solid ground.
Why not take a look here at this lively debate on the tes forum about NQT/QTS, I think you'll find it confirms everything I've said and there are far more contributers and moderation going on there:
http://community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/522 ... ageIndex=1
NQT is a top up year above and beyond QTS
"my understanding is that you HAVE QTS as soon as you complete your studies. The 'induction' or probationary year as it used to be called is an extra on top of QTS."
"I know you have to teach for a year before gaining your QTS"
"No, that's induction. You have to teach for a year before you pass induction - you already have to have QTS at the start of your induction (aka NQT year)."
Nevertheless Psyguy, I enjoy your contributions to this site, but not trust. As others have said, PGCE's are practical hands on courses. 3x8 week placements for me.
Can you accept that I am right in some of my opinions I wonder and therefore shouldn't be posting as though you know everything? Again this is my real point, there is often more than one correct answer and many different views, not everything in life is simply black and white IMHO.
By acknowledging and perhaps re-evaluating your own ideas you gain credibility, by shouting people down and not acknowledging/refusing to adjust you lose it. This is especially so when there are other teachers out there who have been through the PGCE/QTS/NQT process (as I have) and feel on solid ground.
Why not take a look here at this lively debate on the tes forum about NQT/QTS, I think you'll find it confirms everything I've said and there are far more contributers and moderation going on there:
http://community.tes.co.uk/forums/t/522 ... ageIndex=1
NQT is a top up year above and beyond QTS
"my understanding is that you HAVE QTS as soon as you complete your studies. The 'induction' or probationary year as it used to be called is an extra on top of QTS."
"I know you have to teach for a year before gaining your QTS"
"No, that's induction. You have to teach for a year before you pass induction - you already have to have QTS at the start of your induction (aka NQT year)."
Nevertheless Psyguy, I enjoy your contributions to this site, but not trust. As others have said, PGCE's are practical hands on courses. 3x8 week placements for me.
Comment
@Walter
is it your position that PGCE's in the UK are the ONLY valid PGCE programs? Is that specific term of qualification SOLELY exclusive to the UK?
@Jimbo
No i cant, regulatory authority is not 50 shades of grey, it really is black and white. Either the qualification is free of impediment and restrictions or it isnt. In this case there is not more then one answer.
The opinions of other posters on related sites do not constitute authority.
is it your position that PGCE's in the UK are the ONLY valid PGCE programs? Is that specific term of qualification SOLELY exclusive to the UK?
@Jimbo
No i cant, regulatory authority is not 50 shades of grey, it really is black and white. Either the qualification is free of impediment and restrictions or it isnt. In this case there is not more then one answer.
The opinions of other posters on related sites do not constitute authority.
Re: Comment
PsyGuy, YOU brought up that the PGCE is the UK teaching qualification and stated that it was purely academic. Other posters, including myself, informed you that you were wrong, and gave you links to courses to back it up. It is clear from your original post that we are all talking about a UK PGCE.
I think all PGCE programs involve working more than 50% in a school. Please see my previous links. Here is one of them:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/education/courses ... pgcestruct
http://www.shef.ac.uk/education/courses ... pgcestruct