B.A. in content area or education degree?
-
buffalofan
- Posts: 350
- Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:08 pm
A Post-Bac cert is NOT the same as "alternative" certification/licensure. In some states the only way to get certified is to get a post-bac cert. Mine was nearly 2 years beyond the BA taking graduate level classes because I was a career changer. Not everyone decides to go into teaching right away. Are the good schools really going to discriminate because of that? I doubt it (and if they are, would you really want to work there?)
Thank you Shadowjack and Walter, all points well made and will certainly take your advice into consideration when the line has to be drawn. Will spend some time thinking on this one. I do plan in trying to get hired right away in a local IB HS and teach here for a few years to get some experience under my belt before reaching for international status. During this time I will also try to pursue my masters as well. So hopefully when the time comes to branch out onto the international level I will have some teaching experience, hopefully in an IB school, and my masters in my content area. That is my plan anyway.
It is not that I dislike History, of course not, or Biology for that matter...but if you asked me to choose one over the other, I would choose political science is all.
Great advice with well stated points from a recruiters perspective which is important - thanks guys!
It is not that I dislike History, of course not, or Biology for that matter...but if you asked me to choose one over the other, I would choose political science is all.
Great advice with well stated points from a recruiters perspective which is important - thanks guys!
Reply
There are a lot of issues going on here, so let me start with some background in global education. If you imagine global education on a continuum at one end you find the "real" international schools (IS) these are schools that deliver either an internationally recognized curriculum (IB or IGCSE) or an accredited national curriculum (American, A levels/6th form). In the middle you have bilingual schools and municipal schools. Bilingual schools are schools that offer some of their program in an english medium. They may be public (Municipal) schools or they may be local private schools. within their school they have an international or english program. On the other end you have language schools. In these programs if you arent teaching ELL, you are basically teaching academic ELL or ELL for academic purposes. What this means is that while you teach a traditional subject, the objective of the lesson is really building Cognitive Academic Language Proficiency.
So yes your advisors claim that there are teachers who work internationally who dont have professional teaching credentials. These are usually language schools or bilingual schools that are in hardship regions, or bottom tier schools. Why? well they just dont pay very well, and so its difficult for them to attract western talent. As a result they have to lower their standards.
However while technically true, the VAST majority of real ISs require their teachers to be professionally credentialed teachers. In most cases its a regulatory issue, or business practice.
This means we need to have a discussion on what "is" a professional teaching credential. It means different things in different places. The USA has a state credentialing system (though NTSB certification could be argued as a national credential) where individual states regulate and issue teaching certifications that are separate from academic preparation. In Canada however the professional qualification "IS" a B.Ed, yes there is a regulatory agency in various provinces, but if you have a B.Ed and you pass a criminal background check all you do is apply to the agency and your certified. In Australia professional teachers are regulated by the colleges themselves (this is also true in parts of Canada) and the academic preparation is called a PGDE (Post graduate Diploma in Education), its typically a one year program in addition to a bachelors degree. In the UK its a PGCE (Post Graduate Certificate of Education) and also a 1 year program in addition to a bachelors degree. Though the regulatory agencies are governmental ministerial offices associated.
So in some instances a B.Ed really is the teaching qualification. a bachlors degree in education from an American institution however is really only the path you want to take if you plan to teach primary (elementary) education. In many states however if you want to teach secondary the minimum preparation is a bachelors degree in a content subject and a minor in education. ISs when it comes to secondary want to be comfortable that your a content expert in your teaching field, and a major or degree in the teaching subject is going to be more marketable and desirable then certification alone, especially when it comes to those with USA credentials. The reason is that in the US, in years pass with a teacher shortage, states made it very easy to get a certification in subjects that the teacher wasnt really trained in. As a result there are a lot of teachers, specifically in technical areas who cant teach competently at upper secondary levels.
The gold ring in IT (international teaching) is a bachelors in your teaching field and a M.Ed. Thats whats really going to make you competitive as an IT when it comes to academic preparation. A M.Ed can be done in a year, and many schools have "5th year" options that combine a bachelors and a M.Ed (though sometimes schools will offer a Masters in Teaching, or a M.A./M.S. in education).
I understand you really want to do polisci, and Im concerned what your dean said. In IT social studies (also referred to as humanities in IB)is largely history. If social studies is a sunday, then history is the ice cream. PoliSci or Global politics is only in a pilot program in IB right now, but these are the DIP exam registrations from 2012:
History 39,855
Economics 16,334
Psychology 13,965
Business 9,370
Env.Sys. 7,007
Geography 6,123
ITGS 3,267
Philosophy 2,952
Anthropology 1,946
You see whats the most common, the largest course, its history, followed by economics and psychology.
I can understand why you dont want to do history, because outside teaching there isnt a lot of job opportunities for historians (espcially with only a Bachlors) but why not economics, theres some more math in it but its got the same if not better employment opportunities in the corporate sector, and there is a lot of demand for economics in international education. You could always minor (or even dual minor in history and/or polisci) as well.
This brings me to the statement your dean made. If the courses for history and polisci are dual/cross coded across the departments, then the argument he makes for polisci is the same argument then can be made for history, in which case history is going to "look" better and be more marketable on your resume. Recruiters arent going to get to your transcripts if you dont get pass the introduction and that means having the right words and language on your resume.
Lastly, on this specific issue, since the IB Global Politics program is in the pilot stage, you could if you timed it right be graduating and entering the IT market at just the right time that its approved as a general course. Which would mean youd be competing with almost no one (or very few) who had had previous Global Politics experience, a sort of even playing field. The same thing happend with ESS, and will likely happen with health science. Though it didnt happen with LT Performance. You would be taking a sizable risk banking on that.
Yes you could do a ACP (Alternative Certification Program) or better a Post Bachlors certification program, but why? A degree is about (minimally) 120 hours. About 30 of those are your major, and about another 30 are "General Education" courses. That leaves about half your degree composed of electives. Most people focus those electives into a minor which is about 18 hours. Some minors are longer/more, such as educator preparation. Which with student teaching comes out to about 21-24 hours, depending on how your school counts student teaching. So with about 60 hours in electives and 24 of those education training hours that still leaves 36 hours for a double minor in polisci/econ/history or even a dual major. Thats certainly an option considering your deans statement that the programs are all cross/interdisciplinary. Likely youd be able to count a some of the same courses towards both majors as either shared degree electives or a whats a requirment for one major would be an elective for the second major.
I would STRONGLY advise against an ACP program however. The main reason is that ACP programs require an internship instead of student teaching that you do thorough a university program (some ACP programs have something called a clinical internship/teaching, thats similar to student teaching). In an internship you essentially teach in a regular classroom while making a salary for a year, and you get to count the experience as teaching experience, BUT in social studies the demand is VERY low, and has very low turnover.
You may find yourself applying to local schools year after year with no one hiring you, meaning you never get certified. With student teaching at a university at least you will get a teaching placement and know you wont be waiting forever. Additionally, once you graduate your going to need a job to build some experience, and social studies positions at IB schools in the USa are not easy to come by, you will likely find yourself waiting a LONG time for one, and will likely have to work somewhere else in the meantime. All of these things are going to drag out your career plan.
Your best bet is getting certified and a degree in a field that has some international demand and either finding a bottom tier IS to start out in or starting in an international internship at a better school.
@BookshelfAmy & jstwatchin
A PB cert no, an alternative cert yes. What recruiters really care about is if you were university trained or not. Its pretty easy to tell from your resume, since if you went to a university for teacher certification your going to have a school name on your resume. Whether the school called it a PB or ACP program doesnt really matter. They want to know you did classes,exams, and papers, not just watched/listened to some seminars.
FYI:
Im currently involved in a committee that recently discussed the equivalency of a PGCE to a PB certification program. Very polarized opinions to say the least. Strangely, the academics are the most ambivalent. Its the regulators that are the most outspoken and grounded in their position.
So yes your advisors claim that there are teachers who work internationally who dont have professional teaching credentials. These are usually language schools or bilingual schools that are in hardship regions, or bottom tier schools. Why? well they just dont pay very well, and so its difficult for them to attract western talent. As a result they have to lower their standards.
However while technically true, the VAST majority of real ISs require their teachers to be professionally credentialed teachers. In most cases its a regulatory issue, or business practice.
This means we need to have a discussion on what "is" a professional teaching credential. It means different things in different places. The USA has a state credentialing system (though NTSB certification could be argued as a national credential) where individual states regulate and issue teaching certifications that are separate from academic preparation. In Canada however the professional qualification "IS" a B.Ed, yes there is a regulatory agency in various provinces, but if you have a B.Ed and you pass a criminal background check all you do is apply to the agency and your certified. In Australia professional teachers are regulated by the colleges themselves (this is also true in parts of Canada) and the academic preparation is called a PGDE (Post graduate Diploma in Education), its typically a one year program in addition to a bachelors degree. In the UK its a PGCE (Post Graduate Certificate of Education) and also a 1 year program in addition to a bachelors degree. Though the regulatory agencies are governmental ministerial offices associated.
So in some instances a B.Ed really is the teaching qualification. a bachlors degree in education from an American institution however is really only the path you want to take if you plan to teach primary (elementary) education. In many states however if you want to teach secondary the minimum preparation is a bachelors degree in a content subject and a minor in education. ISs when it comes to secondary want to be comfortable that your a content expert in your teaching field, and a major or degree in the teaching subject is going to be more marketable and desirable then certification alone, especially when it comes to those with USA credentials. The reason is that in the US, in years pass with a teacher shortage, states made it very easy to get a certification in subjects that the teacher wasnt really trained in. As a result there are a lot of teachers, specifically in technical areas who cant teach competently at upper secondary levels.
The gold ring in IT (international teaching) is a bachelors in your teaching field and a M.Ed. Thats whats really going to make you competitive as an IT when it comes to academic preparation. A M.Ed can be done in a year, and many schools have "5th year" options that combine a bachelors and a M.Ed (though sometimes schools will offer a Masters in Teaching, or a M.A./M.S. in education).
I understand you really want to do polisci, and Im concerned what your dean said. In IT social studies (also referred to as humanities in IB)is largely history. If social studies is a sunday, then history is the ice cream. PoliSci or Global politics is only in a pilot program in IB right now, but these are the DIP exam registrations from 2012:
History 39,855
Economics 16,334
Psychology 13,965
Business 9,370
Env.Sys. 7,007
Geography 6,123
ITGS 3,267
Philosophy 2,952
Anthropology 1,946
You see whats the most common, the largest course, its history, followed by economics and psychology.
I can understand why you dont want to do history, because outside teaching there isnt a lot of job opportunities for historians (espcially with only a Bachlors) but why not economics, theres some more math in it but its got the same if not better employment opportunities in the corporate sector, and there is a lot of demand for economics in international education. You could always minor (or even dual minor in history and/or polisci) as well.
This brings me to the statement your dean made. If the courses for history and polisci are dual/cross coded across the departments, then the argument he makes for polisci is the same argument then can be made for history, in which case history is going to "look" better and be more marketable on your resume. Recruiters arent going to get to your transcripts if you dont get pass the introduction and that means having the right words and language on your resume.
Lastly, on this specific issue, since the IB Global Politics program is in the pilot stage, you could if you timed it right be graduating and entering the IT market at just the right time that its approved as a general course. Which would mean youd be competing with almost no one (or very few) who had had previous Global Politics experience, a sort of even playing field. The same thing happend with ESS, and will likely happen with health science. Though it didnt happen with LT Performance. You would be taking a sizable risk banking on that.
Yes you could do a ACP (Alternative Certification Program) or better a Post Bachlors certification program, but why? A degree is about (minimally) 120 hours. About 30 of those are your major, and about another 30 are "General Education" courses. That leaves about half your degree composed of electives. Most people focus those electives into a minor which is about 18 hours. Some minors are longer/more, such as educator preparation. Which with student teaching comes out to about 21-24 hours, depending on how your school counts student teaching. So with about 60 hours in electives and 24 of those education training hours that still leaves 36 hours for a double minor in polisci/econ/history or even a dual major. Thats certainly an option considering your deans statement that the programs are all cross/interdisciplinary. Likely youd be able to count a some of the same courses towards both majors as either shared degree electives or a whats a requirment for one major would be an elective for the second major.
I would STRONGLY advise against an ACP program however. The main reason is that ACP programs require an internship instead of student teaching that you do thorough a university program (some ACP programs have something called a clinical internship/teaching, thats similar to student teaching). In an internship you essentially teach in a regular classroom while making a salary for a year, and you get to count the experience as teaching experience, BUT in social studies the demand is VERY low, and has very low turnover.
You may find yourself applying to local schools year after year with no one hiring you, meaning you never get certified. With student teaching at a university at least you will get a teaching placement and know you wont be waiting forever. Additionally, once you graduate your going to need a job to build some experience, and social studies positions at IB schools in the USa are not easy to come by, you will likely find yourself waiting a LONG time for one, and will likely have to work somewhere else in the meantime. All of these things are going to drag out your career plan.
Your best bet is getting certified and a degree in a field that has some international demand and either finding a bottom tier IS to start out in or starting in an international internship at a better school.
@BookshelfAmy & jstwatchin
A PB cert no, an alternative cert yes. What recruiters really care about is if you were university trained or not. Its pretty easy to tell from your resume, since if you went to a university for teacher certification your going to have a school name on your resume. Whether the school called it a PB or ACP program doesnt really matter. They want to know you did classes,exams, and papers, not just watched/listened to some seminars.
FYI:
Im currently involved in a committee that recently discussed the equivalency of a PGCE to a PB certification program. Very polarized opinions to say the least. Strangely, the academics are the most ambivalent. Its the regulators that are the most outspoken and grounded in their position.
Re: Reply
[quote="PsyGuy"] A M.Ed can be done in a year, and many schools have "5th year" options that combine a bachelors and a M.Ed (though sometimes schools will offer a Masters in Teaching, or a M.A./M.S. in education).[/quote]
[b][b]Thanks, I have emailed to ask about this. [/b][/b]
[quote="PsyGuy"]I understand you really want to do polisci, and Im concerned what your dean said. In IT social studies (also referred to as humanities in IB)is largely history. If social studies is a sunday, then history is the ice cream. PoliSci or Global politics is only in a pilot program in IB right now, but these are the DIP exam registrations from 2012:
History 39,855
Economics 16,334
Psychology 13,965
Business 9,370
Env.Sys. 7,007
Geography 6,123
ITGS 3,267
Philosophy 2,952
Anthropology 1,946
You see whats the most common, the largest course, its history, followed by economics and psychology.
I can understand why you dont want to do history, because outside teaching there isnt a lot of job opportunities for historians (espcially with only a Bachlors) but why not economics, theres some more math in it but its got the same if not better employment opportunities in the corporate sector, and there is a lot of demand for economics in international education. You could always minor (or even dual minor in history and/or polisci) as well.[/quote]
[b]If you don't mind me asking because I am learning all of these abbreviations, what does DIP stand for? Wow, that's quite a number of history registrations. Does that mean the market is really saturated with history majors looking for IT jobs? I know many have mentioned that everything runs in cycles, etc but it would be nice to go into the arena in somewhat of a demand you know. Probably wishing on a star here but one can hope can't she? :)[/b]
[quote="PsyGuy"]This brings me to the statement your dean made. If the courses for history and polisci are dual/cross coded across the departments, then the argument he makes for polisci is the same argument then can be made for history, in which case history is going to "look" better and be more marketable on your resume. Recruiters arent going to get to your transcripts if you dont get pass the introduction and that means having the right words and language on your resume.
Lastly, on this specific issue, since the IB Global Politics program is in the pilot stage, you could if you timed it right be graduating and entering the IT market at just the right time that its approved as a general course. Which would mean youd be competing with almost no one (or very few) who had had previous Global Politics experience, a sort of even playing field. The same thing happend with ESS, and will likely happen with health science. Though it didnt happen with LT Performance. You would be taking a sizable risk banking on that.[/quote]
[b]Well, I'm looking at graduating probably in 2016 so I don't know where that would put me on the time frame you mentioned but I don't want to go into something banking on circumstances that I have no control over. I'm not that crazy of a risk taker.
I know for certain that whatever the outcome is, I will not be doing any type of alternative certification. I will do my certification through the university no matter what.[/b][b][color=blue][/color][/b]
[b][b]Thanks, I have emailed to ask about this. [/b][/b]
[quote="PsyGuy"]I understand you really want to do polisci, and Im concerned what your dean said. In IT social studies (also referred to as humanities in IB)is largely history. If social studies is a sunday, then history is the ice cream. PoliSci or Global politics is only in a pilot program in IB right now, but these are the DIP exam registrations from 2012:
History 39,855
Economics 16,334
Psychology 13,965
Business 9,370
Env.Sys. 7,007
Geography 6,123
ITGS 3,267
Philosophy 2,952
Anthropology 1,946
You see whats the most common, the largest course, its history, followed by economics and psychology.
I can understand why you dont want to do history, because outside teaching there isnt a lot of job opportunities for historians (espcially with only a Bachlors) but why not economics, theres some more math in it but its got the same if not better employment opportunities in the corporate sector, and there is a lot of demand for economics in international education. You could always minor (or even dual minor in history and/or polisci) as well.[/quote]
[b]If you don't mind me asking because I am learning all of these abbreviations, what does DIP stand for? Wow, that's quite a number of history registrations. Does that mean the market is really saturated with history majors looking for IT jobs? I know many have mentioned that everything runs in cycles, etc but it would be nice to go into the arena in somewhat of a demand you know. Probably wishing on a star here but one can hope can't she? :)[/b]
[quote="PsyGuy"]This brings me to the statement your dean made. If the courses for history and polisci are dual/cross coded across the departments, then the argument he makes for polisci is the same argument then can be made for history, in which case history is going to "look" better and be more marketable on your resume. Recruiters arent going to get to your transcripts if you dont get pass the introduction and that means having the right words and language on your resume.
Lastly, on this specific issue, since the IB Global Politics program is in the pilot stage, you could if you timed it right be graduating and entering the IT market at just the right time that its approved as a general course. Which would mean youd be competing with almost no one (or very few) who had had previous Global Politics experience, a sort of even playing field. The same thing happend with ESS, and will likely happen with health science. Though it didnt happen with LT Performance. You would be taking a sizable risk banking on that.[/quote]
[b]Well, I'm looking at graduating probably in 2016 so I don't know where that would put me on the time frame you mentioned but I don't want to go into something banking on circumstances that I have no control over. I'm not that crazy of a risk taker.
I know for certain that whatever the outcome is, I will not be doing any type of alternative certification. I will do my certification through the university no matter what.[/b][b][color=blue][/color][/b]
Comment
DIP stands for Diploma. It referees to the IBs Diploma program. You will also see it abbreviated DP.
Hiring moves in cycles, as I wrote above. Course demand is pretty consistent, here are the 2011 and 2010 May registrations:
2011 Registrations
History 38,000
Economics 15,096
Psychology 12,337
Business 8,211
Env.Sys. 6,014
Geography 5,359
ITGS 3,246
Philosophy 3,072
Anthropology 1,519
2010 Registrations
History 34,755
Economics 13,749
Psychology 11,365
Business 7,271
Geography 5,289
Env.Sys. 5,044
ITGS 3,416
Philosophy 2,762
Anthropology 1,478
There is some minor variation but their is a lot of consistency in the most popular course. History is right up there at the top.
Pilot programs run about 4 years So youd be graduating at just about the right time.
Hiring moves in cycles, as I wrote above. Course demand is pretty consistent, here are the 2011 and 2010 May registrations:
2011 Registrations
History 38,000
Economics 15,096
Psychology 12,337
Business 8,211
Env.Sys. 6,014
Geography 5,359
ITGS 3,246
Philosophy 3,072
Anthropology 1,519
2010 Registrations
History 34,755
Economics 13,749
Psychology 11,365
Business 7,271
Geography 5,289
Env.Sys. 5,044
ITGS 3,416
Philosophy 2,762
Anthropology 1,478
There is some minor variation but their is a lot of consistency in the most popular course. History is right up there at the top.
Pilot programs run about 4 years So youd be graduating at just about the right time.