As I was applying for jobs this year, I noticed that very few schools still offer AP or A-Levels. And the few that did were hardly top schools. Nearly all schools seemed to fit into one of the three categories:
1. American style curriculum for Grades 1-10 + I.B. Diploma
2. British style curriculum (Key Stage 1-3, IGCSE) + I.B. Diploma
3. I.B. World School (PYP, MYP, Diploma)
Are we quickly reaching the point where ALL international schools will be adopting the IB program, at least at the Diploma Level?
If you are at a school that has recently adopted the I.B. Diploma program, what ramifications have there been for teachers or students?
AP/A Levels going extinct at international schools?
I noticed the same the other year. I was teaching MYP & DP then.
This year I chose to teach DP only as saw it would open up a lot more doors, however most jobs will involve DP with some middle school classes.
I can only comment on my current school but our MYP programme doesn't adequately prepare students for the rigours of DP.
This year I chose to teach DP only as saw it would open up a lot more doors, however most jobs will involve DP with some middle school classes.
I can only comment on my current school but our MYP programme doesn't adequately prepare students for the rigours of DP.
Last edited by Mr.C4ke on Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
Actually, I think that ap is going to make a comeback. The new capstone program looks like it will complete really well with IB. Plus international schools in competitive regions/cities want to differentiate what they offer so they will adopt AP or offer both.
You'll notice hkis is the only international school offering it right now.
http://press.collegeboard.org/releases/ ... ation-pro2
You'll notice hkis is the only international school offering it right now.
http://press.collegeboard.org/releases/ ... ation-pro2
Comment
I dont think they are going to make a come back as they dont ahve anything to come back too. Making AP more Ib isnt going to make them more competitive with IB, the vast majority of parents would still prefer an actual IB program if thats what they wanted then an AP program that was a little more IBish.
What it will do is make AP more attractive to the already existing American schools that arent doing AP in their upper secondary programs. All that is marketing though. Your not going to see converts from euro or international curriculums adopt AP because of any changes. Your just going to see more american schools that are already using an american curriculum buy into AP.
What it will do is make AP more attractive to the already existing American schools that arent doing AP in their upper secondary programs. All that is marketing though. Your not going to see converts from euro or international curriculums adopt AP because of any changes. Your just going to see more american schools that are already using an american curriculum buy into AP.
I've never been at an AP school. What is its allure? I terms of dollars and cents, AP is both rigorous AND you can potentially save thousands of college dollars by getting college credit or exempting entry level writing/lit classes.
Do IB get students anything comparable, post high school, other than rigor?
Do IB get students anything comparable, post high school, other than rigor?
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Reply
Its important to understand that any credit award is determined by an individual university. Different schools have different score requirements and grant course equivalence differently. One school might accept AP/IB Bio as "General Biology" another school might grant it equivalent to "Life Systems for non science majors".
In GENERAL, schools that accept IB reports a university will have a credit granting policy that requires a student to have studied and tested for the subject at HL and scored at least a 4 on the individual IB exams.
Looking at some differences between the two:
AP has higher levels of acceptance and popularity in the USA, but IB is more widely accepted globally.
AP is a testing program. Generally, a teacher gets trained though a seminar, creates a syallabus, gets the syllabus approved, teaches the class, and then takes the AP exam. The crucial component to the teacher is getting the syllabus approved. Thats what allows you to offer an "AP Approved Course". However the AP program at its core is 100% a testing program. You do not need to attend a school that offers AP courses, or take AP classes to take the AP exams. Many AP schools form/enroll themselves as AP testing centers so that they can provide "seamless" instruction and testing. This is however an illusion, a student can simply contact an AP testing center in their area and take the exams. A school typically offers its AP courses over one year, though some do so over 2 years, so that students arent overburdened with AP exam prep and other activities such as ACT/SAT, TOEFL/IELTS, college applications, internships, etc.
This distinction is crucial because AP offers independent assessment program, whereas IB offers a curriculum.
The IBs program is a full 12 year program centered around a philosophy of inquiry based education. This process culminates in the Diploma program where students complete IB exams and if scoring high enough receive the International Baccalaureate (Diploma). AP does offer an International Diploma, but its not a substitute for a schools diploma and is only available to international students. It also doesnt have the level of recognition that a IB Diploma has. The IBs diploma is based on exam scores and classroom performance including TOK, CAS, and ESSAY requirements. As a result there is more potential for grade inflation over the AP.
From a school perspective AP is cheaper, faster and easier to implement, because the barrier of entry is pretty low. IB is about as close to a turnkey solution as you get when it comes to curriculum. However it costs more and has a lot more work involved.
When we get to rigor about IB you have to be careful what you talk about. DIP is pretty academically rigorous. MYP is still pretty spongy and MYP is grades 6-10.
In GENERAL, schools that accept IB reports a university will have a credit granting policy that requires a student to have studied and tested for the subject at HL and scored at least a 4 on the individual IB exams.
Looking at some differences between the two:
AP has higher levels of acceptance and popularity in the USA, but IB is more widely accepted globally.
AP is a testing program. Generally, a teacher gets trained though a seminar, creates a syallabus, gets the syllabus approved, teaches the class, and then takes the AP exam. The crucial component to the teacher is getting the syllabus approved. Thats what allows you to offer an "AP Approved Course". However the AP program at its core is 100% a testing program. You do not need to attend a school that offers AP courses, or take AP classes to take the AP exams. Many AP schools form/enroll themselves as AP testing centers so that they can provide "seamless" instruction and testing. This is however an illusion, a student can simply contact an AP testing center in their area and take the exams. A school typically offers its AP courses over one year, though some do so over 2 years, so that students arent overburdened with AP exam prep and other activities such as ACT/SAT, TOEFL/IELTS, college applications, internships, etc.
This distinction is crucial because AP offers independent assessment program, whereas IB offers a curriculum.
The IBs program is a full 12 year program centered around a philosophy of inquiry based education. This process culminates in the Diploma program where students complete IB exams and if scoring high enough receive the International Baccalaureate (Diploma). AP does offer an International Diploma, but its not a substitute for a schools diploma and is only available to international students. It also doesnt have the level of recognition that a IB Diploma has. The IBs diploma is based on exam scores and classroom performance including TOK, CAS, and ESSAY requirements. As a result there is more potential for grade inflation over the AP.
From a school perspective AP is cheaper, faster and easier to implement, because the barrier of entry is pretty low. IB is about as close to a turnkey solution as you get when it comes to curriculum. However it costs more and has a lot more work involved.
When we get to rigor about IB you have to be careful what you talk about. DIP is pretty academically rigorous. MYP is still pretty spongy and MYP is grades 6-10.
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eion_padraig
- Posts: 408
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 8:18 pm
Though I actually like the idea of the IB curriculum better than a curriculum structured around AP classes, I think there are some things that students give up by taking IB.
I think IB is problematic for students who enjoy having art, music, theatre, but are not necessarily going to pursue it as a major in university. Perhaps they have an interest in more than one. Using that for one's 6th class for two years may be a lot more commitment than students are ready to make. They may be able to take single semester or year long art courses in different subjects into their senior year.
Perhaps more problematic is when a students is interested in science, but isn't sure if or what area of science they would study in university. Taking two IB science courses for two years is quite challenging, and it uses up the "free" slot. By comparison, a student under AP able to potentially take 4 different science subjects without doubling up in 9th - 12th. In some schools 9th may be general, though it may not be.
The ability to take one year AP courses allows a lot more flexibility and customization of one's schedule. It also can allow student to opt out of subjects they don't care for or find relevant to their personal ambitions.
While there is flexibility in IB for taking classes that may require different levels of intensity based on which topics they select (I'm not really talking about HL vs SL; more like Math studies vs Math vs Further Mathematics), but taking 6 classes can be more than some students can handle.
I certainly see areas of weakness for AP classes (covering all the material in subjects is tough for some schools' schedules by May), and I like the notion of a liberal arts approach to secondary school, which students taking AP classes can avoid.
I'd hate to see the AP curriculum die out, because I think it does serve some students better than the IB curriculum. I feel the same way about GCE/A levels, though I admit to being less familiar with the specific details there. I guess I like the idea of diversity within educational settings.
I think IB is problematic for students who enjoy having art, music, theatre, but are not necessarily going to pursue it as a major in university. Perhaps they have an interest in more than one. Using that for one's 6th class for two years may be a lot more commitment than students are ready to make. They may be able to take single semester or year long art courses in different subjects into their senior year.
Perhaps more problematic is when a students is interested in science, but isn't sure if or what area of science they would study in university. Taking two IB science courses for two years is quite challenging, and it uses up the "free" slot. By comparison, a student under AP able to potentially take 4 different science subjects without doubling up in 9th - 12th. In some schools 9th may be general, though it may not be.
The ability to take one year AP courses allows a lot more flexibility and customization of one's schedule. It also can allow student to opt out of subjects they don't care for or find relevant to their personal ambitions.
While there is flexibility in IB for taking classes that may require different levels of intensity based on which topics they select (I'm not really talking about HL vs SL; more like Math studies vs Math vs Further Mathematics), but taking 6 classes can be more than some students can handle.
I certainly see areas of weakness for AP classes (covering all the material in subjects is tough for some schools' schedules by May), and I like the notion of a liberal arts approach to secondary school, which students taking AP classes can avoid.
I'd hate to see the AP curriculum die out, because I think it does serve some students better than the IB curriculum. I feel the same way about GCE/A levels, though I admit to being less familiar with the specific details there. I guess I like the idea of diversity within educational settings.
Reply
@eion_padraig
I actually agree with a lot of your statements, though I think they are unfair.
First DIP, doesnt start until 11th grade, its unfair to compare it to a 9-12 HS program. There is a LOT of flexibility in MYP and there are a number of athletics, and performing arts "academies" that focus heavily on those subjects, and use the IB curriculum.
Second, IB is not a time of "discovery" anymore, it also doesnt exist in a bubble. There is a lot of discovery lead up in MYP for a student to explore what their interests are. before getting to DIP. There comes a point where the "proving" and culminating part of learning comes in. This is harder for an American trained teacher, but in the rest of global education summative evaluation at the conclusion of secondary is very common, whether its "A levels", or "university admissions exams" in much of asia, really the American system is the abnormally. I would also argue that the time commitment is about the same really. When you compare the amount of time spent on yearly state mandated testing in an american public school, if you add up that time spent from from K-12 it comes out to about two years, and most of that prep time is actually 'lost' on test strategies. Most students take their IB exams in May and review starts in March.
Third, the DIP program is a general education curriculum, and AP is a testing program. The IB is putting their seal on that diploma, and certifying that the student has met certain standards of achievement and performance that can be compared across all similar students. AP cant and doesnt do that. Ap provides a testing program, and a school doesnt even have to have an AP program for a student to enroll in. Their are a lot of private/independent schools in the States that dont have AP but their classes are of sufficient rigor that students take the exams and are very successful anyway.
Comparing the option the AP offers to a full curriculum such as the IBs is unfair. It would be better to compare the traditional high school curriculum that a school still has to follow to IB. When you compare those two actual curriculums, they have relatively equal rigidness in tems of offering a general education program. Their arent many public schools that would allow a student to graduate having done extensive fine arts coursework who didnt meet the states minimum requirements for a diploma. The state board of education wouldnt permit a student to substitute art for math and still graduate with a diploma.
Fourth, most ISs offer a local or national diploma track in addition to IB. In those cases their may and often is more flexibility in course options. Even in the case of a pure IB world school, there is nothing preventing a student from pursuing AP exams outside of the school. In the case of science a student could do (and has done) IB Biology within the school and do AP chemistry and physics outside of the school, and providing the university they go to has a policy they could receive credit for all 3 course.
Yes, IB is more restrictive and less flexible then AP, but thats becuase they have different goals. You cant fault either one for not being both. AP is a testing/credit program, IB is a curriculum. Just as i can earn university credit hours though CLEP exams, it is no substitute for a college degree program from a university.
I actually agree with a lot of your statements, though I think they are unfair.
First DIP, doesnt start until 11th grade, its unfair to compare it to a 9-12 HS program. There is a LOT of flexibility in MYP and there are a number of athletics, and performing arts "academies" that focus heavily on those subjects, and use the IB curriculum.
Second, IB is not a time of "discovery" anymore, it also doesnt exist in a bubble. There is a lot of discovery lead up in MYP for a student to explore what their interests are. before getting to DIP. There comes a point where the "proving" and culminating part of learning comes in. This is harder for an American trained teacher, but in the rest of global education summative evaluation at the conclusion of secondary is very common, whether its "A levels", or "university admissions exams" in much of asia, really the American system is the abnormally. I would also argue that the time commitment is about the same really. When you compare the amount of time spent on yearly state mandated testing in an american public school, if you add up that time spent from from K-12 it comes out to about two years, and most of that prep time is actually 'lost' on test strategies. Most students take their IB exams in May and review starts in March.
Third, the DIP program is a general education curriculum, and AP is a testing program. The IB is putting their seal on that diploma, and certifying that the student has met certain standards of achievement and performance that can be compared across all similar students. AP cant and doesnt do that. Ap provides a testing program, and a school doesnt even have to have an AP program for a student to enroll in. Their are a lot of private/independent schools in the States that dont have AP but their classes are of sufficient rigor that students take the exams and are very successful anyway.
Comparing the option the AP offers to a full curriculum such as the IBs is unfair. It would be better to compare the traditional high school curriculum that a school still has to follow to IB. When you compare those two actual curriculums, they have relatively equal rigidness in tems of offering a general education program. Their arent many public schools that would allow a student to graduate having done extensive fine arts coursework who didnt meet the states minimum requirements for a diploma. The state board of education wouldnt permit a student to substitute art for math and still graduate with a diploma.
Fourth, most ISs offer a local or national diploma track in addition to IB. In those cases their may and often is more flexibility in course options. Even in the case of a pure IB world school, there is nothing preventing a student from pursuing AP exams outside of the school. In the case of science a student could do (and has done) IB Biology within the school and do AP chemistry and physics outside of the school, and providing the university they go to has a policy they could receive credit for all 3 course.
Yes, IB is more restrictive and less flexible then AP, but thats becuase they have different goals. You cant fault either one for not being both. AP is a testing/credit program, IB is a curriculum. Just as i can earn university credit hours though CLEP exams, it is no substitute for a college degree program from a university.
While much of the IB versus AP discussion simply boils down to opinions and preferences to which everyone is entitled, what is certainly true is that AP is in no danger of fading out of existence. While it's true that international schools have adapted the IB curriculum in exponentially increasing numbers, AP continues to be strong, growing, and relevant in the US - interestingly also the country with by far the largest number of IB schools. In 2012, there were 3.7 million AP exams administered to over 2 million students. Those numbers continue to dwarf IB numbers, even with the fast spread of that curriculum.
My personal frustration as a teacher with AP has been that, in the end, it all boils down to one test - and there are learners for whom this is never going to be a successful situation. Aside from that, I have enjoyed the creativity it allows in the classroom as I teach the standards that are, in fact, prescribed, and the rigor is exceptional and an excellent predictor of success in college or university. My frustration with IB as a teacher has been the growing emphasis on bureaucracy and pedantic attention to details as opposed to "big picture" ideas and critical thinking, also - as noted above - the stress it places on students who cannot take the electives or co-curricular activities with which they might have otherwise enriched their high school experience if they hadn't had so many restrictions and requirements for the IB diploma.
As a parent of children who have experienced both systems, hands down I would choose a school where my child could choose a few courses per year to take at the AP level and - gasp - change his/her mind about interests as time progresses rather than the IB program in its rigidity. That saddens me to say, as I don't believe the IB program started out to be so rigid, or at least the school I was at didn't administer it that way - yet now it's become a hydra that just keeps spouting more ugly heads in spite of its original, idealistic intent.
While obviously a limited and personal example, my children's experience (both international school grads) offers a bit of insight on the two programs. My son with his full IB diploma received fewer credits entering a US college with his 3 higher level courses than my daughter, who had 4 AP courses in grade 11 & 12 - thus she had the equivalent of 4 HL courses with none of the stress of an Extended Essay, TOK, or the CAS paperwork (She had a service learning requirement in her school, just not all the rigamarole of the paperwork that IB requires of the students.)
Perhaps those differences (students do value getting the college credit and advanced course placement) and the ever increasing fees charged by IB - are the reasons that some U.S. schools who had gone IB early have now dropped it. Too soon to say it's a trend, but with the economic situation in the U.S., it wouldn't be surprising to see IB lose its momentum, nor would it surprise to see those same economics cause similar decision making in international schools.
My personal frustration as a teacher with AP has been that, in the end, it all boils down to one test - and there are learners for whom this is never going to be a successful situation. Aside from that, I have enjoyed the creativity it allows in the classroom as I teach the standards that are, in fact, prescribed, and the rigor is exceptional and an excellent predictor of success in college or university. My frustration with IB as a teacher has been the growing emphasis on bureaucracy and pedantic attention to details as opposed to "big picture" ideas and critical thinking, also - as noted above - the stress it places on students who cannot take the electives or co-curricular activities with which they might have otherwise enriched their high school experience if they hadn't had so many restrictions and requirements for the IB diploma.
As a parent of children who have experienced both systems, hands down I would choose a school where my child could choose a few courses per year to take at the AP level and - gasp - change his/her mind about interests as time progresses rather than the IB program in its rigidity. That saddens me to say, as I don't believe the IB program started out to be so rigid, or at least the school I was at didn't administer it that way - yet now it's become a hydra that just keeps spouting more ugly heads in spite of its original, idealistic intent.
While obviously a limited and personal example, my children's experience (both international school grads) offers a bit of insight on the two programs. My son with his full IB diploma received fewer credits entering a US college with his 3 higher level courses than my daughter, who had 4 AP courses in grade 11 & 12 - thus she had the equivalent of 4 HL courses with none of the stress of an Extended Essay, TOK, or the CAS paperwork (She had a service learning requirement in her school, just not all the rigamarole of the paperwork that IB requires of the students.)
Perhaps those differences (students do value getting the college credit and advanced course placement) and the ever increasing fees charged by IB - are the reasons that some U.S. schools who had gone IB early have now dropped it. Too soon to say it's a trend, but with the economic situation in the U.S., it wouldn't be surprising to see IB lose its momentum, nor would it surprise to see those same economics cause similar decision making in international schools.
Discussion
I firmly agree, the AP is not going anywhere, especially in the States, and China adds more testing centers every year.
Yes, AP all boils down to a test, but thats true in a lot of countries (specifically asian countries), but in many ways it all boils down to a test anyway when you consider the SAT and ACT for college admissions. At the competiive universities no matter how stellar your transcript is, its not going to overshadow a low test score. Admissions officers will just assume (and rightly so) that your HS just has a lot of grade inflation. This is of course one issue with IB as well, though to a smaller degree.
AP was never meant for everyone, its not supposed to address the needs of all students its ADVANCE placement, not general or basic placement. Many of those learners that AP is not appropriate for would not be successful in entry level university classes without remediation either.
I disagree with the generalization of your description of IBs focus on "bureaucracy and pedantic attention to details as opposed to "big picture" ideas and critical thinking". This is more true in DIP, but DIP is a small part of IB, MYP is very flexible and allows for big picture ideas if the school wants it to be. PYP and its modular approach is based on big picture themes across subjects.
I agree DIP has gotten more bureaucratic and "manual heavy", but core programs such as TOK and ESSAY are integral parts of both individual expression and big picture learning.
Nothing about IB DIP keeps students from exploring electives, thats what a lot XCs bring and do for a school. DIP is fast its 2 years and really less then that, when you take out summer youve got 19 months and most schools that take IB exams in May start review in March, brings it down to 15 months, thats not a lot of time to do your 6 courses, CAS, TOK, ESSAY, and your actual exams. Im sorry but DIP is not intended to still be a time for exploration and discovery.
I understand your son got one less college credit for his IB program, his school could have let him test up to four, but under your scenario, even with three IB college courses, there was NOTHING to stop him from doing an AP exam in addition to his IB courses. A number of students choose to study more then their schools HL limit, knowing they cant take more IB exams at HL but as preperation for an AP exam.
I understand that CAS, TOK, ESSAy are stresses, the IBDP is by definition an honors program, and many students outside of IB have similar requirements of an honors paper or service requirements. Those stresses though are valuable, and valuable learning objectives. I know a student that has completed an honors paper knows how to write for academics with far more security and clarity then a student who filled in the right bubbles on a test or wrote an exam essay of a couple paragraphs.
Yes, IB has paperwork, and that stress, but as adults life is FULL of paperwork, and its not going to get less or better as they mature and get older. Organization, and time management are important skills for a young adult and college student to master, and the sooner they do, they better they tend to perform.
I do see in the data that the IB in the Americas is dropping, and is partially the cause for creating more facilities and support offices in the US recently. There are two conclusions Ive discussed with coordinators from the States: 1) IB world schools and independent schools that use the IB program are growing. 2) IB programs within larger schools are shrinking. Programs arent vanishing, but enrollment is getting smaller within these programs.
Yes, AP all boils down to a test, but thats true in a lot of countries (specifically asian countries), but in many ways it all boils down to a test anyway when you consider the SAT and ACT for college admissions. At the competiive universities no matter how stellar your transcript is, its not going to overshadow a low test score. Admissions officers will just assume (and rightly so) that your HS just has a lot of grade inflation. This is of course one issue with IB as well, though to a smaller degree.
AP was never meant for everyone, its not supposed to address the needs of all students its ADVANCE placement, not general or basic placement. Many of those learners that AP is not appropriate for would not be successful in entry level university classes without remediation either.
I disagree with the generalization of your description of IBs focus on "bureaucracy and pedantic attention to details as opposed to "big picture" ideas and critical thinking". This is more true in DIP, but DIP is a small part of IB, MYP is very flexible and allows for big picture ideas if the school wants it to be. PYP and its modular approach is based on big picture themes across subjects.
I agree DIP has gotten more bureaucratic and "manual heavy", but core programs such as TOK and ESSAY are integral parts of both individual expression and big picture learning.
Nothing about IB DIP keeps students from exploring electives, thats what a lot XCs bring and do for a school. DIP is fast its 2 years and really less then that, when you take out summer youve got 19 months and most schools that take IB exams in May start review in March, brings it down to 15 months, thats not a lot of time to do your 6 courses, CAS, TOK, ESSAY, and your actual exams. Im sorry but DIP is not intended to still be a time for exploration and discovery.
I understand your son got one less college credit for his IB program, his school could have let him test up to four, but under your scenario, even with three IB college courses, there was NOTHING to stop him from doing an AP exam in addition to his IB courses. A number of students choose to study more then their schools HL limit, knowing they cant take more IB exams at HL but as preperation for an AP exam.
I understand that CAS, TOK, ESSAy are stresses, the IBDP is by definition an honors program, and many students outside of IB have similar requirements of an honors paper or service requirements. Those stresses though are valuable, and valuable learning objectives. I know a student that has completed an honors paper knows how to write for academics with far more security and clarity then a student who filled in the right bubbles on a test or wrote an exam essay of a couple paragraphs.
Yes, IB has paperwork, and that stress, but as adults life is FULL of paperwork, and its not going to get less or better as they mature and get older. Organization, and time management are important skills for a young adult and college student to master, and the sooner they do, they better they tend to perform.
I do see in the data that the IB in the Americas is dropping, and is partially the cause for creating more facilities and support offices in the US recently. There are two conclusions Ive discussed with coordinators from the States: 1) IB world schools and independent schools that use the IB program are growing. 2) IB programs within larger schools are shrinking. Programs arent vanishing, but enrollment is getting smaller within these programs.