Your experience while frustrating is not true for a majority of candidates or schools.
First, no school "hands out jobs", schools dont generally attend fairs to casually survey or look over the talent (some schools do attend fairs with no vacancies). Schools can judge talent from your application and resume online without spending the time or money to fly around the globe.
The intent of the fair isnt to hire people, although thats often the outcome for many candidates and schools, the REAL objective of the fair is to meet people, schools meeting teachers, and teachers meeting schools leadership. Its about measuring fit. This happens in 5 ways:
1) While it doesnt seem fair to you, to the school that meets and fills a vacancy with a prime candidate before the fair begins for that school and that candidate the fair was very successful and accomplished with great efficiency a satisfactory outcome to both of those parties. This allows the school to focus more time on more candidates in other vacancies, and makes one less candidate/teacher competing for interview slots.
2) Schools and candidates interview each other through the traditional interview process about half the competitive candidates (thats important "competitive") at a fair will get at least one offer, and about a third of the candidates will accept one of their offers.
3) After the fair as prime recruiting season passes and spring begins, another third of candidates will receive and accept an offer based on their experience (interview or introduction) with a recruiter at a fair.
4) Some candidates will learn (and this is valuable) that the "in person" interview format at a fair does not allow them to promote themselves with the best possible presentation. Some people are great with kids, and just dont interview well with adults. For these candidates they learn they are better at Skype or other distance interviews, and it allows them to focus and convey their strengths while minimizing the impact of their weaknesses.
About a quarter of candidates who were not successful at a fair, receive and accept offers through distance interviews (Skype/Phone).
5) Lastly, of the remaining candidates who are unsuccessful it is nearly always (there are some strange outlying exceptions) due to incongruence between the candidates marketability and expectations.These include candidates who are:
A) Under experienced (No experience, or unqualified in vacancy)
B) Unrealistic wants (Wont accept less then a 6 figure salary)
C) Logistical deal breakers (Spouse has cancer, and needs school insurance)
D) Professionally unmotivated (Teaching couple really wants to be tourists/travel)
I dont have an agenda, I care about the data, and your past experience with the particular recruiter and school is a reflection on THEM not you, let it go, and move on. You will not change them, and the industry and market isnt interested in changing them either. I dont want to get all Star Wars or Buddhist, but the light side really does need the dark side. There will always be young, new, inexperienced, evil, and pathological admins and recruiters, and Im sorry you found one.
If its any condolence imagine how much worse it could have been if youd actually signed with them and they did something even worse once you were working for them??? Consider yourself fortunate to have seen the train wreck that would have been them coming, and moved out of its way.
Job Fairs: Are they worth the cost, time and effort?
I think job fairs are archaic and a waste of time and money. Search and ISS are hanging on to this sort of model with a firm grip. If most principals and directors actually grasped technology and Skype interviews then job fairs would cease to exist.
I mean even the process when you get there, paper folders, sign up interview process, it's just old-school and needs a revamp or needs to disappear quickly!
I mean even the process when you get there, paper folders, sign up interview process, it's just old-school and needs a revamp or needs to disappear quickly!
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homeandaway
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:40 am
[quote="seinfeld"]I think job fairs are archaic and a waste of time and money. Search and ISS are hanging on to this sort of model with a firm grip. If most principals and directors actually grasped technology and Skype interviews then job fairs would cease to exist.
I mean even the process when you get there, paper folders, sign up interview process, it's just old-school and needs a revamp or needs to disappear quickly![/quote]
I agree. The point I was trying to make in this thread is that the process is a great idea if all the jobs were actually up for grabs. But schools play the waiting game and try and keep applicants in reserve while pursuing others so that they can pick and choose. The common theme I have found in the international system is that schools never appreciate it when they find someone to fit the position. They are continually and obsessively looking for 'new and improved', mainly because every head of school thinks their school is the only real international school.
As for Skype interviews, yes, most schools I have found are willing to do interviews by Skype, which is commonsense. There is no point having someone fly all that way for an interview when a school can speak to you and see you online
I mean even the process when you get there, paper folders, sign up interview process, it's just old-school and needs a revamp or needs to disappear quickly![/quote]
I agree. The point I was trying to make in this thread is that the process is a great idea if all the jobs were actually up for grabs. But schools play the waiting game and try and keep applicants in reserve while pursuing others so that they can pick and choose. The common theme I have found in the international system is that schools never appreciate it when they find someone to fit the position. They are continually and obsessively looking for 'new and improved', mainly because every head of school thinks their school is the only real international school.
As for Skype interviews, yes, most schools I have found are willing to do interviews by Skype, which is commonsense. There is no point having someone fly all that way for an interview when a school can speak to you and see you online
I agree - I hate the whole job fair business. I'm hoping that it will go away soon, when schools realize that they can actually save money by doing video conferences. And it is very archaic - the whole folder system at the fair, I mean, you can't even pay the Search fee via credit card! Who ever heard of such a thing?
But for me, going to the fair is actually better. I live in a city in northern China, and the internet is terribly slow. Skype doesn't really work very well so I'm hoping that I either get hired at the fair or that a school will interview me via telephone.
But for me, going to the fair is actually better. I live in a city in northern China, and the internet is terribly slow. Skype doesn't really work very well so I'm hoping that I either get hired at the fair or that a school will interview me via telephone.
Comment
A couple of replies:
First, most directors, principals, or someone on the leadership team knows how to use Skype. Its no harder then signing into email, and plugging in a camera, and even the setup can be done by someone in the know in advance. Using Skype is no harder then using a mobile phone really.
Second, schools benefit from the "psychology" and perceived bubble of the fairs. They know that the pressure to leave the fair with an offer, and contract can be very persuasive, you dont want to be the person who leaves without anything. The recruiters know this, they also know that seeing all those people waiting in line for certain schools elevates their perceived standing compared to other school, because you only see the schools that are at your particular fair. They want you to have to "decide" on the spot as opposed to waiting for something better that might come along later.
Third, yes schools are always looking for something better, but thats because the management world of an admin reflects more of the corporate space then the education space. Yes, heads have ego, and they believe that their school is the best/top/real IS, but there isnt anyone in an executive position in any industry that doesnt think the same way.
Fourth, most associates dont except credit cards, because there is actually a fairly large window (60 days) that credit card charges can be challenged and most often are reversed in the card holders favor. People join, they dont get a job, they demand a refund, and claim the agency didnt do anything, etc. There are a lot of teachers who have very unralistic perceptions and expectations of how the IS/IT market works, and what the role of the agency/associate is. A lot of people inquire/join expecting that their associate is going to be contacting the schools and actually get them a job, like an executive recruitment firm.
First, most directors, principals, or someone on the leadership team knows how to use Skype. Its no harder then signing into email, and plugging in a camera, and even the setup can be done by someone in the know in advance. Using Skype is no harder then using a mobile phone really.
Second, schools benefit from the "psychology" and perceived bubble of the fairs. They know that the pressure to leave the fair with an offer, and contract can be very persuasive, you dont want to be the person who leaves without anything. The recruiters know this, they also know that seeing all those people waiting in line for certain schools elevates their perceived standing compared to other school, because you only see the schools that are at your particular fair. They want you to have to "decide" on the spot as opposed to waiting for something better that might come along later.
Third, yes schools are always looking for something better, but thats because the management world of an admin reflects more of the corporate space then the education space. Yes, heads have ego, and they believe that their school is the best/top/real IS, but there isnt anyone in an executive position in any industry that doesnt think the same way.
Fourth, most associates dont except credit cards, because there is actually a fairly large window (60 days) that credit card charges can be challenged and most often are reversed in the card holders favor. People join, they dont get a job, they demand a refund, and claim the agency didnt do anything, etc. There are a lot of teachers who have very unralistic perceptions and expectations of how the IS/IT market works, and what the role of the agency/associate is. A lot of people inquire/join expecting that their associate is going to be contacting the schools and actually get them a job, like an executive recruitment firm.
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homeandaway
- Posts: 39
- Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 3:40 am
The process at job fairs doesn't work because, as PsyGuy confirmed, people who have been on the circuit for a while don't play by the rules. Adherence to these rules is seen as being uncompetitive and unrealistic by applicants and is breaking these rules is encouraged by recruiters who want to see teachers fighting over a position like hungry dogs over a raw hunk of flesh. I don't go anymore after turning up and, as I said, finding that most of the top tier school positions were not available as advertised, or had gone within the first hour or, had not gone, but had the recruiter say, 'the teacher is staying on' or 'we are giving the position internally'. one of the worst schools I found for treating prospective applicants has been Patana in Thailand. Choc-full of their own self-importance, they are incredibly inconsiderate and dismissive. I have found many of the so-called top tier schools to have a host of staff who have been very unhappy there but as they have children and are getting their school fees paid, they are locked into staying. Caveat Emptor!
Reflection
Well that and for an established teacher at a top tier school, leaving is usually a significant step down, even if you went to another top tier school. Many schools have experience caps, as far as step salary. There is also the Pre-existing condition clause when it comes to insurance. Lastly, at a certain point, depending on country you have to stay in the country to collect your pension, and after a period of time, you can't walk away from that investment.
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truthSAYER
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:39 am
- Location: Around the World!
And So On...
Dear PsyGuy,
-Just want to thank you for all your input on this forum post. It seems likely that given the amount of time and need and authority you seem to present with here that you are not in or about the business of education -but rather the education business. Congrats. Not the nicest of jobs having to objectify and see people and learning communities as industrial models made up of pure commodities where teachers and others involved in the crafting of learning and nurture of our young are mere "meat" in an enterprise possess but apparently you believe that for the sake of ever efficiently staffing schools -someone has to do it.
While I think the whole job fair procedure is an outmoded, waste of resources that can largely be replaced by leveraging technology for other modes of encounter, I am truly relieved that people like yourself are not actually involved in working with directly with children or teachers where you'd be challenged daily to check your ego, vanity and "adjust your paradigm" to humanize or de-humanize them in order to manage the complexities of human relationships. If you were unable to do so you'd be overwhelmed by the messy and chaotic nature of personal variables that don't fit neatly into the commercial, enterprise model you've outlined for us here.
Please just know this -the game you and others are playing and profiting at in the "edu-business" has a shelf life and your days are numbered. With the advent of some many new telecommunications technologies and opportunities for personal entrepreneurship in managing ones career choices -recruiters, head hunting companies and similar handlers of talent will need to work extra hard to convince schools and clients that spending big money to fly around in hopes of maybe getting/granting an interview and/or job is a worthwhile expenditure. Especially when they can connect in a variety of other ways without getting on a plane, or checking into a five star hotel.
Once more thanks for all your input and presenting the business point of view.
-Just want to thank you for all your input on this forum post. It seems likely that given the amount of time and need and authority you seem to present with here that you are not in or about the business of education -but rather the education business. Congrats. Not the nicest of jobs having to objectify and see people and learning communities as industrial models made up of pure commodities where teachers and others involved in the crafting of learning and nurture of our young are mere "meat" in an enterprise possess but apparently you believe that for the sake of ever efficiently staffing schools -someone has to do it.
While I think the whole job fair procedure is an outmoded, waste of resources that can largely be replaced by leveraging technology for other modes of encounter, I am truly relieved that people like yourself are not actually involved in working with directly with children or teachers where you'd be challenged daily to check your ego, vanity and "adjust your paradigm" to humanize or de-humanize them in order to manage the complexities of human relationships. If you were unable to do so you'd be overwhelmed by the messy and chaotic nature of personal variables that don't fit neatly into the commercial, enterprise model you've outlined for us here.
Please just know this -the game you and others are playing and profiting at in the "edu-business" has a shelf life and your days are numbered. With the advent of some many new telecommunications technologies and opportunities for personal entrepreneurship in managing ones career choices -recruiters, head hunting companies and similar handlers of talent will need to work extra hard to convince schools and clients that spending big money to fly around in hopes of maybe getting/granting an interview and/or job is a worthwhile expenditure. Especially when they can connect in a variety of other ways without getting on a plane, or checking into a five star hotel.
Once more thanks for all your input and presenting the business point of view.
Last edited by truthSAYER on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Comment
I dont share my particular feelings or opinions on forums in general. I care about the data, and as i presented here in this case is the admin leadership position. I realize that sometimes people come to this forum to "dump" to vent their frustrations, and thats okay. It is however naive and very dangerous to pretend that the way things "should be" is how they are. It reminds me of the cliché "The only problem with winning the rat race is your still a rat", well thats true, but losing the rat race means your a loser, and also a rat. You can choose not to participate of course, many teachers have done so in the pass, but your not going to change anything. A number of the top schools have been running their schools in this fashion for decades, some for over a century. The day of reckoning has been promised by many a wrathful teacher, I have not seen the riders yet, nor do I anticipate their arrival anytime soon.
Personally I am all for fairs. After filling out my first and last 18 screen on- line application I came to appreciate the recruiting fair table. Rather than spending hours filling out these applications, which all ask different questions I would rather meet the directors and superintendents face to face and have a conversation. Yes, you can accomplish something similar using Skype but its still not the same thing.
My superintendent has hired people without the face to face but only when there is a truly outstanding candidate or a very pressing vacancy. He has told me that our school, a big one in Asia, will continue to support fairs and the opportunities it provides for him to sit down across from potential teachers.
My superintendent has hired people without the face to face but only when there is a truly outstanding candidate or a very pressing vacancy. He has told me that our school, a big one in Asia, will continue to support fairs and the opportunities it provides for him to sit down across from potential teachers.
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momentofclarity
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:49 am
I agree with the last post. Granted my opinion is based on the fact I have had success at job fairs and don't see an issue with the format as such, although I agree the paper mailboxes need to be replaced with some form of online communication system. The sign up is a necessary evil and allows admin the chance to put faces to names and meet some new potentials HR may have overlooked.
Towards the statement that the game will change I would love to see some examples of other professions that rely on electronic interview options before going with face-to-face? Honestly I think it would be a struggle, I have never heard of this.
The systems for fairs and job searches have progressed in even my short time overseas, but the face to face will always be the choice for the schools that want and expect the best staff. Schools that rely on skype and other electronic interview sources seem to be in a very specific class (I loathe the idea of tiered schools, but recognize there are definitely good schools and not so good schools) so rather than being the future for all international schools it would seem it becomes a way to identify schools that struggle to send admin to fairs and cannot afford the agency teaching fees. It would the difference between a school that advertises on Search/ISS/COIS vs. a school that advertises on "teachabroad"; "daveseslcafe" or similar.
Towards the statement that the game will change I would love to see some examples of other professions that rely on electronic interview options before going with face-to-face? Honestly I think it would be a struggle, I have never heard of this.
The systems for fairs and job searches have progressed in even my short time overseas, but the face to face will always be the choice for the schools that want and expect the best staff. Schools that rely on skype and other electronic interview sources seem to be in a very specific class (I loathe the idea of tiered schools, but recognize there are definitely good schools and not so good schools) so rather than being the future for all international schools it would seem it becomes a way to identify schools that struggle to send admin to fairs and cannot afford the agency teaching fees. It would the difference between a school that advertises on Search/ISS/COIS vs. a school that advertises on "teachabroad"; "daveseslcafe" or similar.
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truthSAYER
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:39 am
- Location: Around the World!
Int'l School Hiring Processes Values, & Interpretation-
Dear PsyGuy et.al,
This will probably be my last response on this thread but as you've been the most active and faithful correspondent here -I'll say -thanks again.
However Mr PsyGuy, in the interest of holding you true to your assertions, I need to express that it is incongruous of you (and undermining to your credibility) to say that you don't generally share your views etc. on forums when you've made nearly 2000 posts in one year on this forum. By any measure that's quite a bit and it's not all "data".
Just to set the record straight I opened this thread not to merely vent but to share experiences and to investigate how others were thinking and feeling about the changing nature of int'l school hiring and the job fair process. As I actually obtained a job through the fairs (I was a "gold standard winner") my motivation was not wrathful but inquisitional. Because personal experiences almost always contain some subjective interpretation there is for sure a measure of opinion but no more than yours in your so called "factual" presentation of how all school leadership is thinking when they sign-on to meet with as many potential candidates as time permits in a two day job fair event in order to build their learning communities.
Actually, besides very vague references e.g, "about a quarter, a half, a third" you've presented zero factual information or data to support your understanding and presentation of the int'l school hiring process. Though laden with business and marketing metaphors your point of view is just that -a point of view. Thus you can not claim to speak with ultimate authority nor some overarching objective reality about the rapidly shifting nature of the international educational field, the socioeconomic factors driving it, the human element or reality itself. So you ought be more careful when you say you only care about "the data" when you've none to offer and when you condescendingly impose your opinions about the dangers of career (and world view) naivete on readers. Who are you anyway and who do you work for?
Your voluminous responses have revealed that as you're a businessman not an educator you've dived into waters beyond your ability to easily navigate because you do not share the same values as those who've committed their lives to the vocation of teaching. Apparently, to you teaching is just a profession, a job, a means to earn a living and so educators can be quantified, bought and sold like other commodities. To we educators it is a calling, a mission to which we're committed and while we want to make a decent living and live reasonably securely the majority of us in the field of education are not driven by a profit motive. Any values inventory taken among those in the business and education fields would reveal significant differences of kind I refer to here.
In parting I'd like to respond to you comment that you've not seen any riders indicative of change. Here's is a link to a leading article from the most recent International Schools Services publication
https://www.iss.edu/about-us/newslinks/ ... recruiting
In several articles about use of technology and statistical studies on what factors influence teachers joining schools it shows not only a dramatic shift in the ISS business model -which has taken a huge hit the last few years -but supportive of trends which show that schools and teachers are operating in many new and different ways in their quests to come together in learning communities around the world. I hope you will read it and -between the lines -the writing on the wall.
Wishing you a truly humane recruiting season this year -TS.
[i][quote="PsyGuy"]I dont share my particular feelings or opinions on forums in general. I care about the data, and as i presented here in this case is the admin leadership position. I realize that sometimes people come to this forum to "dump" to vent their frustrations, and thats okay. It is however naive and very dangerous to pretend that the way things "should be" is how they are. It reminds me of the cliché "The only problem with winning the rat race is your still a rat", well thats true, but losing the rat race means your a loser, and also a rat. You can choose not to participate of course, many teachers have done so in the pass, but your not going to change anything. A number of the top schools have been running their schools in this fashion for decades, some for over a century. The day of reckoning has been promised by many a wrathful teacher, I have not seen the riders yet, nor do I anticipate their arrival anytime soon.[/quote][/i]
This will probably be my last response on this thread but as you've been the most active and faithful correspondent here -I'll say -thanks again.
However Mr PsyGuy, in the interest of holding you true to your assertions, I need to express that it is incongruous of you (and undermining to your credibility) to say that you don't generally share your views etc. on forums when you've made nearly 2000 posts in one year on this forum. By any measure that's quite a bit and it's not all "data".
Just to set the record straight I opened this thread not to merely vent but to share experiences and to investigate how others were thinking and feeling about the changing nature of int'l school hiring and the job fair process. As I actually obtained a job through the fairs (I was a "gold standard winner") my motivation was not wrathful but inquisitional. Because personal experiences almost always contain some subjective interpretation there is for sure a measure of opinion but no more than yours in your so called "factual" presentation of how all school leadership is thinking when they sign-on to meet with as many potential candidates as time permits in a two day job fair event in order to build their learning communities.
Actually, besides very vague references e.g, "about a quarter, a half, a third" you've presented zero factual information or data to support your understanding and presentation of the int'l school hiring process. Though laden with business and marketing metaphors your point of view is just that -a point of view. Thus you can not claim to speak with ultimate authority nor some overarching objective reality about the rapidly shifting nature of the international educational field, the socioeconomic factors driving it, the human element or reality itself. So you ought be more careful when you say you only care about "the data" when you've none to offer and when you condescendingly impose your opinions about the dangers of career (and world view) naivete on readers. Who are you anyway and who do you work for?
Your voluminous responses have revealed that as you're a businessman not an educator you've dived into waters beyond your ability to easily navigate because you do not share the same values as those who've committed their lives to the vocation of teaching. Apparently, to you teaching is just a profession, a job, a means to earn a living and so educators can be quantified, bought and sold like other commodities. To we educators it is a calling, a mission to which we're committed and while we want to make a decent living and live reasonably securely the majority of us in the field of education are not driven by a profit motive. Any values inventory taken among those in the business and education fields would reveal significant differences of kind I refer to here.
In parting I'd like to respond to you comment that you've not seen any riders indicative of change. Here's is a link to a leading article from the most recent International Schools Services publication
https://www.iss.edu/about-us/newslinks/ ... recruiting
In several articles about use of technology and statistical studies on what factors influence teachers joining schools it shows not only a dramatic shift in the ISS business model -which has taken a huge hit the last few years -but supportive of trends which show that schools and teachers are operating in many new and different ways in their quests to come together in learning communities around the world. I hope you will read it and -between the lines -the writing on the wall.
Wishing you a truly humane recruiting season this year -TS.
[i][quote="PsyGuy"]I dont share my particular feelings or opinions on forums in general. I care about the data, and as i presented here in this case is the admin leadership position. I realize that sometimes people come to this forum to "dump" to vent their frustrations, and thats okay. It is however naive and very dangerous to pretend that the way things "should be" is how they are. It reminds me of the cliché "The only problem with winning the rat race is your still a rat", well thats true, but losing the rat race means your a loser, and also a rat. You can choose not to participate of course, many teachers have done so in the pass, but your not going to change anything. A number of the top schools have been running their schools in this fashion for decades, some for over a century. The day of reckoning has been promised by many a wrathful teacher, I have not seen the riders yet, nor do I anticipate their arrival anytime soon.[/quote][/i]
Last edited by truthSAYER on Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:55 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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truthSAYER
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:39 am
- Location: Around the World!
International Schools Services publication NEWSLINKS
As mentioned in my response to PsiGuy Here's is a link to a leading article from the most recent International Schools Services publication NEWSLINKS
http://www.iss.edu/about-us/newslinks/a ... recruiting
--you'll need to paste this into your Browser URL area.
In several articles about use of technology and statistical studies on what factors influence teachers joining schools it shows not only a dramatic shift in the ISS business model -which has taken a huge hit the last few years -but support of trends which show that schools and teachers are operating in many new and different ways in their quests to come together in learning communities around the world.
Certainly worth reading and seeing as prepare to you venture out onto the job search frontier this year!
http://www.iss.edu/about-us/newslinks/a ... recruiting
--you'll need to paste this into your Browser URL area.
In several articles about use of technology and statistical studies on what factors influence teachers joining schools it shows not only a dramatic shift in the ISS business model -which has taken a huge hit the last few years -but support of trends which show that schools and teachers are operating in many new and different ways in their quests to come together in learning communities around the world.
Certainly worth reading and seeing as prepare to you venture out onto the job search frontier this year!
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
ISS and Technology
What this tells me is that ISS is losing clients to SEARCH (honestly, most of my friends on the circuit use Search, not ISS - they tend to avoid it like the plague), so in order to attract quality candidates AND turn a profit on that section of their business, they are (a) removing recruiting fair costs, so they are free for all ISS clients; and (b) giving a deal on signup time for cost, so that they have a larger data base of teachers to present to schools.
This is business - it isn't being done because the old paradigm is no longer working - it is being done because they are losing business to a competitor.
If you honestly think that recruiters from schools are going to look through hundreds of electronic portfolios or that that nifty "learning package" you have "created" (did you really, or was it the person in the classroom next to you?), then I have some land in Florida to sell you.
Not trying to put you down, but ISS is a business. Their decision is based on what affects their bottom line. Also, I have known enough admin that they like to get out and glad hand and actually meet in person the teachers they are going to hire.
Just my thoughts on it.
This is business - it isn't being done because the old paradigm is no longer working - it is being done because they are losing business to a competitor.
If you honestly think that recruiters from schools are going to look through hundreds of electronic portfolios or that that nifty "learning package" you have "created" (did you really, or was it the person in the classroom next to you?), then I have some land in Florida to sell you.
Not trying to put you down, but ISS is a business. Their decision is based on what affects their bottom line. Also, I have known enough admin that they like to get out and glad hand and actually meet in person the teachers they are going to hire.
Just my thoughts on it.