You just really don't get it, do you...
1) Having good experience in challenging circumstances is something to be proud of and not to be ashamed of. If you can teach well in a difficult school then you can surely teach well in an easier school. I don't know of any administrators who would look on what Amy has done in a negative light.
2) Of course interviews are about presenting yourself in a good light. You want to show the best of yourself in order to get job offers. That does not mean that you should lie about your past or claim to be able to do things that you can't. How does that make sense? Would you want a job that you can't do? Would you want to have to confess, a few months after the job starts, that you aren't capable of doing what you promised?
3) How would you feel about school administrators who are similarly economical with the truth, and who lure you into a position that turns out to be nothing like what you envisaged?
4) For schools and candidates, the right fit is important, and in order to get there it's important that both sides are above board in their discussions.
5) Dave J Psyguy is a constant advocate of fraud, deception, misrepresentation and lying in the job-seeking process. Perhaps that's why he can never keep a job longer than a year - because he keeps getting found out by administrators that he's just a blowhard and a bull-s#^\+*€!
Spinning Public School Experience
Comment
I believe that we "get" different things.
1) That is a gross fallacy. There is no research that shows being successful in one type of school is a predictor of success in another type of school. My experiences consistently find that public school teachers for instance have a more "difficult" time adjust to the environment at an International/Independent school. The same way i wouldn't want a rocket engineer to fix a car.
We would seem to know different administrators, i know of a fair number that would be disinterested in the experiences of a teacher from an at-risk school.
2) Why does lying or spinning make sense? Well getting the job makes sense to a lot of people. Getting an offer is about growing and one needs opportunity to do that. That opportunity comes in the form of experience and to get it one needs to get an offer. Im sure you know that one of the most common questions is how to get IB experience in the first place if schools require IB experience to get hired.
Teachers are capable of learning and growth and getting the job done. So If they get hired in january for a position based on some creative "spin" they have time to actually make whatever they claimed a reality.
Yes id want a job i cant do, as that would inspire and motivate me to learn how to do that job. That said i have 29 teaching qualifications, so not being able to do something, doesnt come up very often.
3) How would i feel about admins who do the same? I imagine the same way i do now. Admins lie about there schools all the time. The paid side of this site is full of such admin "deceptions".
I've never had a school that was as perfect as a recruiter described it. At the end of every fair I go to, i pick up the extra media packets and brochures, so when i visit those schools ic an compare the "marketing" to the reality. Ive NEVER found a school that matched its advertising. The closest they come is when it comes to the landscaping.
4) I agree good fit is important, teachers are malleable, they are capable of "becoming" the right fit, for the right school.
1) That is a gross fallacy. There is no research that shows being successful in one type of school is a predictor of success in another type of school. My experiences consistently find that public school teachers for instance have a more "difficult" time adjust to the environment at an International/Independent school. The same way i wouldn't want a rocket engineer to fix a car.
We would seem to know different administrators, i know of a fair number that would be disinterested in the experiences of a teacher from an at-risk school.
2) Why does lying or spinning make sense? Well getting the job makes sense to a lot of people. Getting an offer is about growing and one needs opportunity to do that. That opportunity comes in the form of experience and to get it one needs to get an offer. Im sure you know that one of the most common questions is how to get IB experience in the first place if schools require IB experience to get hired.
Teachers are capable of learning and growth and getting the job done. So If they get hired in january for a position based on some creative "spin" they have time to actually make whatever they claimed a reality.
Yes id want a job i cant do, as that would inspire and motivate me to learn how to do that job. That said i have 29 teaching qualifications, so not being able to do something, doesnt come up very often.
3) How would i feel about admins who do the same? I imagine the same way i do now. Admins lie about there schools all the time. The paid side of this site is full of such admin "deceptions".
I've never had a school that was as perfect as a recruiter described it. At the end of every fair I go to, i pick up the extra media packets and brochures, so when i visit those schools ic an compare the "marketing" to the reality. Ive NEVER found a school that matched its advertising. The closest they come is when it comes to the landscaping.
4) I agree good fit is important, teachers are malleable, they are capable of "becoming" the right fit, for the right school.
One teacher doesn't make an entire school bad, PsyGuy. Being a good teacher in an underperforming school is not something that I'm going to hold against an applicant. I want to hire good teachers, who's philosophy meshes with mine and the school's. A real educator knows that there are many factors that go into a school and making it good, and/or bad.
Lying, and/or spinning the truth is never a good thing. In the end, like you know, you will get found out and then, like you, will need to bolt for the next job and start all over.
It's 100% obvious that you run ISR to me, and others that have emailed me have expressed the same concern. Pretty sad that you need to create a troll character in order to get people over here.
Lying, and/or spinning the truth is never a good thing. In the end, like you know, you will get found out and then, like you, will need to bolt for the next job and start all over.
It's 100% obvious that you run ISR to me, and others that have emailed me have expressed the same concern. Pretty sad that you need to create a troll character in order to get people over here.
Dave J Psyguy
1) There is no research on this area full stop, and even if there were its value would be marginal at best. As for your "experiences" - well they are certainly plentiful but always shallow. But based on your "experiences", tell me what do you think is the breakdown of candidates entering the field of international education vis a vis their prior teaching experience. Because my guess - not research-based - is 90% + from the public school sector. Yet you tell us "in (your) experience" these are the ones who find it hardest to adjust. Meantime I am an administrator, and I know lots of them. I can't think of one who would find Amy's experience prejudicial. So give me the names of the ones you know who would find that a mark against her.
2) Getting a job through deceit or lies or trickery is, as I said, a tactic you always recommend. I think that's a pretty clear comment on your morality. Some of the most powerful lessons that kids pick up from their teachers are caught rather than taught, and I certainly hope the students in your care don't find your unscrupulous behavior contagious. The notion that one can concoct experiences about one's career, and then spend the next few months trying to make them come true is as silly as most of your other statements. Meantime, as you know, I've seen your resume. It may be that your State sprinkles certifications like confetti, but to be certified doesn't mean that you are qualified. Indeed, in a (rare) moment of modesty recently you admitted as much. Frankly, you aren't "qualified" to do very much in any school, as your lukewarm references seem to indicate.
3) You're right, some administrators do cross the line from presenting their school in the best light to misrepresenting their school. The first is acceptable; the second isn't. The same strictures apply to teachers. Your "moral" stance seems to be: "This administrator could possibly be lying to me so I'm going to get my lies in first." What a sad world people like you live in.
4) Being a "good fit" is something you have never experienced in your career, because you are never in one place long enough to discover this.
5) I know this is a big ask, but for the sake of your erudition and because I am an educator at heart, will you please try to learn the difference between "disinterested" and "uninterested".
2) Getting a job through deceit or lies or trickery is, as I said, a tactic you always recommend. I think that's a pretty clear comment on your morality. Some of the most powerful lessons that kids pick up from their teachers are caught rather than taught, and I certainly hope the students in your care don't find your unscrupulous behavior contagious. The notion that one can concoct experiences about one's career, and then spend the next few months trying to make them come true is as silly as most of your other statements. Meantime, as you know, I've seen your resume. It may be that your State sprinkles certifications like confetti, but to be certified doesn't mean that you are qualified. Indeed, in a (rare) moment of modesty recently you admitted as much. Frankly, you aren't "qualified" to do very much in any school, as your lukewarm references seem to indicate.
3) You're right, some administrators do cross the line from presenting their school in the best light to misrepresenting their school. The first is acceptable; the second isn't. The same strictures apply to teachers. Your "moral" stance seems to be: "This administrator could possibly be lying to me so I'm going to get my lies in first." What a sad world people like you live in.
4) Being a "good fit" is something you have never experienced in your career, because you are never in one place long enough to discover this.
5) I know this is a big ask, but for the sake of your erudition and because I am an educator at heart, will you please try to learn the difference between "disinterested" and "uninterested".
Reply
@WeDoDude
One teacher (or admin) can make a school bad. It doesnt matter if YOUR going to hold the experience against the teacher, it matters if some other head or recruiter out there will, and if thats a school your applying to and you want the job (I assume the reader does, as the implication is they are interviewing with the school).
Im glad you agree with me, you want teachers you mesh and have a good fit with and other recruiters and heads want the same. A majority of those recruiters and heads define a good fit and meshing of philosophy as being teachers who are like them and come from the same educational environment, "Like likes like".
Did Diogenes miss you in his travels looking for his 10 honest men? Are you really saying youve never lied? Assuming you have lied at some point in the past, is your claim that you NEVER obtained some advantage, or benefit as a consequence of that deception?
I am not affiliated with ISR in anyway other then being a contributing member of this forum. I do not own, nor do I work in any capacity for or with ISR.
@Walter
1) So is there or is there not research, there is, and your claim that its value is marginal, is your opinion, and its not supported by data. I suppose your entitled to make whatever erroneous or haphazard conclusion or interpretations that you want.
90% of the teachers at "your school" may be from public schools, but the schools Ive worked at most recently hire established international teachers, and the few Ive seen that came directly from public schools in their home country, do indeed have a harder time assimilating then those from private/independent schools in their home country. Of those from public schools, the teachers from more affluent districts and schools do better. The few teachers Ive worked with from at risk schools, are so shocked and stunned that they dont have to babysit thugs all day that they completely miss the more subtle issues in IS students. they think everything is fine, and simply dont have the eye or ear to pick up on student problems and issues.
No you can think of them, your just not going to acknowledge it, just as they wouldnt acknowledge that they are an elitist openly either.
2) I dont always recommend the unscrupulous course of action. I present it as one of several possible paths to choose. I dont say do this, or do that. I dont tell people what to do. I present options, and this forum already has plenty of "angle advocates". While you may disagree with it, and are generally dismissive of all such options, they are no less valid and valuable then your advocacy. I truly hope your right, as the ability to "spin" is a valuable skill thats more likely to make a student successful in many professional fields. If a constable pulls me over and asks if i know how fast i was going, my answer is "yes Constable, and it was a few miles below the speed limit". You wouldnt survive very long in sales, public relations, marketing, advertising, law, politics, intelligence, marriage, and a lot of others if you lacked skills in deception.
I dont recall using the term "concoct", i believe "spin" was the term i used. I feel that your approach to epistemology is a crystalized knowledge approach. If your a computer science teacher, and during an interview asked about my experience in using Apple computers, I would say im very proficient and can reasonably GET proficient in Apple OS operations in a couple months. If im an English Lit teacher, and asked what my familiarity is with french literature, I would reply that Im well versed in the classics of french literature, and i have the time to consult the IBO literature list and read the french works listed there. All this because saying "no" to one of a schools "check list" items is a really good way of NOT getting a job offer.
Youve never seen m resume or references. You dont know what you think you know, but keep thinking that.
I never claimed i was qualified to teach everything, again thats why I used the term "often", as in "not being able to do something, doesnt come up very often", notice that this is NOT an absolute claim as in the statement "ive never encountered a subject i couldnt teach".
3) Im glad we agree on something.
If you wish to characterize the world as sad, thats your conclusion. Regardless its the way the world is, and the way it works. Admins lie, owners lie, parents lie, students lie, and yes teachers lie. This over pronounced position of truth and honesty, is just naive and disingenuous. Your position is self serving and bias, of course you want teacher candidates and aplicants to be "honest" it makes your job as a head and recruiter easier. After all your going to leave whatever recruiting event your at with a teacher, the same cant be said for all teachers, specifically the ones who leave without offers.
4) How long does one need to stay to determine a good fit, or is this the same position of yours that you have to give a school X amount of time to render an opinion if a school is "bad" or not? Ive been at schools for 2 years, is that long enough to determine if a school is a good fit? All but one of my schools was at least a year, is a year long enough to determine a good fit? Are you saying as an admin that it takes you that long to determine if a teacher is a good fit for your school? I can do it in far less time then that.
5) Not likely, while i agree i use the terms inappropriately according to definition and formal convention. In common use (and wrongly) disinterested is a harsher form of uninterested.
One teacher (or admin) can make a school bad. It doesnt matter if YOUR going to hold the experience against the teacher, it matters if some other head or recruiter out there will, and if thats a school your applying to and you want the job (I assume the reader does, as the implication is they are interviewing with the school).
Im glad you agree with me, you want teachers you mesh and have a good fit with and other recruiters and heads want the same. A majority of those recruiters and heads define a good fit and meshing of philosophy as being teachers who are like them and come from the same educational environment, "Like likes like".
Did Diogenes miss you in his travels looking for his 10 honest men? Are you really saying youve never lied? Assuming you have lied at some point in the past, is your claim that you NEVER obtained some advantage, or benefit as a consequence of that deception?
I am not affiliated with ISR in anyway other then being a contributing member of this forum. I do not own, nor do I work in any capacity for or with ISR.
@Walter
1) So is there or is there not research, there is, and your claim that its value is marginal, is your opinion, and its not supported by data. I suppose your entitled to make whatever erroneous or haphazard conclusion or interpretations that you want.
90% of the teachers at "your school" may be from public schools, but the schools Ive worked at most recently hire established international teachers, and the few Ive seen that came directly from public schools in their home country, do indeed have a harder time assimilating then those from private/independent schools in their home country. Of those from public schools, the teachers from more affluent districts and schools do better. The few teachers Ive worked with from at risk schools, are so shocked and stunned that they dont have to babysit thugs all day that they completely miss the more subtle issues in IS students. they think everything is fine, and simply dont have the eye or ear to pick up on student problems and issues.
No you can think of them, your just not going to acknowledge it, just as they wouldnt acknowledge that they are an elitist openly either.
2) I dont always recommend the unscrupulous course of action. I present it as one of several possible paths to choose. I dont say do this, or do that. I dont tell people what to do. I present options, and this forum already has plenty of "angle advocates". While you may disagree with it, and are generally dismissive of all such options, they are no less valid and valuable then your advocacy. I truly hope your right, as the ability to "spin" is a valuable skill thats more likely to make a student successful in many professional fields. If a constable pulls me over and asks if i know how fast i was going, my answer is "yes Constable, and it was a few miles below the speed limit". You wouldnt survive very long in sales, public relations, marketing, advertising, law, politics, intelligence, marriage, and a lot of others if you lacked skills in deception.
I dont recall using the term "concoct", i believe "spin" was the term i used. I feel that your approach to epistemology is a crystalized knowledge approach. If your a computer science teacher, and during an interview asked about my experience in using Apple computers, I would say im very proficient and can reasonably GET proficient in Apple OS operations in a couple months. If im an English Lit teacher, and asked what my familiarity is with french literature, I would reply that Im well versed in the classics of french literature, and i have the time to consult the IBO literature list and read the french works listed there. All this because saying "no" to one of a schools "check list" items is a really good way of NOT getting a job offer.
Youve never seen m resume or references. You dont know what you think you know, but keep thinking that.
I never claimed i was qualified to teach everything, again thats why I used the term "often", as in "not being able to do something, doesnt come up very often", notice that this is NOT an absolute claim as in the statement "ive never encountered a subject i couldnt teach".
3) Im glad we agree on something.
If you wish to characterize the world as sad, thats your conclusion. Regardless its the way the world is, and the way it works. Admins lie, owners lie, parents lie, students lie, and yes teachers lie. This over pronounced position of truth and honesty, is just naive and disingenuous. Your position is self serving and bias, of course you want teacher candidates and aplicants to be "honest" it makes your job as a head and recruiter easier. After all your going to leave whatever recruiting event your at with a teacher, the same cant be said for all teachers, specifically the ones who leave without offers.
4) How long does one need to stay to determine a good fit, or is this the same position of yours that you have to give a school X amount of time to render an opinion if a school is "bad" or not? Ive been at schools for 2 years, is that long enough to determine if a school is a good fit? All but one of my schools was at least a year, is a year long enough to determine a good fit? Are you saying as an admin that it takes you that long to determine if a teacher is a good fit for your school? I can do it in far less time then that.
5) Not likely, while i agree i use the terms inappropriately according to definition and formal convention. In common use (and wrongly) disinterested is a harsher form of uninterested.
-
BookshelfAmy
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:21 pm