How important is having years of experience in the west?

[sassylassie]

I'm hoping to get an idea of the best way to go about finding work in at least somewhat reputable international schools.

I'm single, female, and 36 years old. I have a bachelor's degree in child development from a state university in the US.

For the last 4.5 years, I taught English in a public elementary school in Seoul, S. Korea. It was in a very wealthy area of Seoul, and I was hired directly by the district board of education--it was not through the 3-ring circus a.k.a. SMOE. I was involved in creating curriculum that was implemented district-wide during summer and winter English camps. I don't mean to be snooty, but it was not a cram school or a private after-school program. I worked hard and created my own lessons--it wasn't a situation where I was mindlessly leading kids through set daily workbook pages. The parents were picky, and I was well-liked by students, parents, and staff. I have good references.

I really loved that job, but I left to go back to school in the US. I'm now halfway through a master's degree in elementary education. It's a program that includes a full year of student teaching and I'll receive a teaching certificate next May. Then in July I will complete my thesis and the master's degree portion of the program. I hope to find a teaching position outside of the US for fall 2013, which means that I will need to begin preparing my resume and looking at openings in the next few months, before I've had a chance to complete the student teaching and the master's degree.

Here's the thing: I won't have two years of experience in a US public school setting. Will that be difficult to overcome in my search for a job? I'm not that excited about staying in the US because honestly I'm from a state that's fairly bland and homogenous, and sometimes it's hard to feel content here amongst the average cultural and political frame of reference, especially given all that I've experienced in the past 10 years.

Should I just bite the bullet and work a few years in the US--put in my time so that I will have more experience and be a more attractive candidate to the better schools? Should I settle for a lower-tier school and try to work my way up? Or should I find a position in say, Hong Kong or the Middle East that is a public-school ESL position, much like my job in Korea, and just try to eventually transition over to the "real" international schools? My first preference would probably be to find a decent job internationally, even if it's not at an international school, and work my way up. But if not having more years of student teaching experience in the US is going to come back to haunt me later, I'd rather do it now.

Thoughts? Anything I'm not taking into consideration? Would it be tough to be able to start out at a 2nd-tier school, given my lack of experience in US public schools? Would it be difficult to transition to an international school if I only have experience in ESL positions abroad? For the record, I'm not really looking for Europe. I'm mostly interested in Asia or the Middle East, although I wouldn't turn down anything in the Mediterranean or the Caribbean, haha.

I really appreciate your input. I know you guys get these kinds of questions all the time.

[teacherguy]

I was in a similar situation when I began looking for work internationally. I had just received my M. Ed., but had no teaching experience in the U.S. beyond student teaching. I went to the UNI fair and found that very few schools were interested. Like you I’d student taught for a year in my master’s program. I then went on and student taught another semester to get my secondary teaching endorsement. I tried to point this out when talking to directors, to no avail.

I did get a few interviews with second tier schools, and while waiting for the interviews to start I walked around the conference room and talked to just about every director there. All of them said, “Come back and see me after you’ve got two years under your belt.â€

[sassylassie]

Thanks for your response, teacherguy. That was helpful. It's good to know what others have experienced, and to get an idea of what schools are looking for, and why. It's also nice to know that it is possible to work your way up.

Anyone else? I tried to make a poll with all kinds of wittily-phrased options, so that I could get more feedback, but apparently any polls with more than zero options are not allowed.

[PsyGuy]

Polls and PMs dont function on this board.

Your experience in SK really sounds great and you certainly did a lot more then just teach ESL. You really accomplished a lot and you should be proud, and it still means nothing, because its ESL, and it counts for zero. No one will give you any credit for it. It doesnt matter what you did, or where at, or anything, because ESL means zero. Anything done pre certification isnt worth anything.

I see a couple of options for you:

1) Stick it out for another year or two. a year long student teaching is unusual, usually internships are a year long, and you can use that experience. It might be too late, but since your in elementary trying to do student teaching at a IB school in PYP would really help you.

2) You could look at internships at an international school. Most of them are paid, and many are identical (or very close) to a regular overseas hire package. They are very competitive though, but you could easily be at a better school.Compare being an intern at a first tier school for a year to being a teacher at a third tier school.

3) You can enter the field now. Its going to be really hard, as you have no experience that you can count, your not certified, and your teaching field is only elementary/primary (which tend to get saved for teaching couples). That said there are 3rd tier schools that will hire you (though these wont be very good jobs). Theres a job for anyone if you will accept anything. Joining Search though is for 3 years so you could look at this as a trial run, go to a fair close by, and see what happens. One thing you have going for you is that your older, and presumably more mature, which is an asset compared to the 20 somethings coming out of college.

[sassylassie]

Thanks for your input.

Yeah, I am proud of the work that I did, because I think that it made me a much better teacher and far more confident in my abilities than I would have been otherwise. I realize that it won't count, and while that's too bad, at least I loved my job, grew a lot professionally, and made enough money to support myself. So it wasn't a total waste.

I guess maybe I wasn't very clear about a couple of things. I am in the US now, working in a (title 1) public elementary school--I've already been placed and I've already started working with the students.

Technically it is one semester of "internship" and one semester of student teaching. I go into the school 3 days per week this semester and since I've had experience teaching and our students are overall shockingly far below grade level, I have been team teaching and leading small groups. Because most of the other students in the program have little or no experience working in a classroom, they will use the first semester to observe and gradually "get comfortable." The second semester I will be student teaching full-time. I'm not sure how much different "full-time" will be from what I'm currently doing (it's now the 3rd week of school), or what I will be doing by October. I'm assuming that it will essentially be a full year of student teaching.

You raised an interesting idea that I hadn't thought of. Maybe a school would take me on as an "internship" teacher or a paraprofessional with a lower salary to start until I have completed a few years of experience. Hmm. Not a bad option--worth exploring, anyway.

I was thinking about attending the UNI fair because it's somewhat close and my expenses would be minimal, compared to attending the other fairs. Perhaps I could go and just kind of feel out the schools and get an idea of what my prospective job offers might look like, either way. If I get an offer, great, and if not, I'm sure I'll be able to find something in my home state that will allow me to get a couple of years of experience before I try again.

I guess I just had high hopes to leave this small(-minded) town behind me ASAP, but perhaps it would be better to wait it out until I have proof that I am a wonderful, competent teacher and therefore solid job offer(s). And of course it would be nice to have a few years to enjoy being at home with family.

[PsyGuy]

I didnt know if youd actually started the student teaching yet, its only a week or two into the new year and though maybe you hadnt reported yet. Anyway student teaching in an Ib PYP program would have been very marketable, you could have counted this year as a year of experience.

Most internship programs are paid internships. They really differ in some you have your own classroom and your own students and ther's no difference between you and a regular teacher. In some schools you co teach, or team teach, or do assistant teacher/aid duties. Search is the best agency for Interns (more schools so more internship programs), they even hired a new intern coordinator (Diana Kerry) for this upcoming year.
It might sound crazy but I have seen teachers turn red and steam coming out of there ears, when a fully qualified and experienced teacher wasnt hired for a teaching position at schools in italy, france, spain, but they hired an intern without a credential who hadnt even graduated yet, with airfare, insurance, and a full salary.

[sassylassie]

Thanks for taking the time to consider my situation, PsyGuy.

I was also thinking about applying with ADEC in the UAE after I finish school and get my teaching certificate. I realize this is more ESL experience, but the salary is attractive, and perhaps I would be able to move on to a solid second-tier international school in the Middle East when I'm done.

To be honest, I don't really care that much if I teach in an ESL environment or in an international school, even though I realize the two are really quite different. I do eventually want to move to an international school, because I need to work where I can have a future, so I will be able to retire before age 70. In the beginning of an international school career, though, I'm not sure if this would essentially be a step backwards, and if it is, what repercussions I would see from going back to ESL temporarily (for another 2 years) to pay off the student loans. The difference in salary between ADEC and a local school district in the US is going to be about $10,000-15,000 more *per year* with ADEC, and that doesn't even include the free housing and health insurance.

Thoughts? Does this seem feasible? Or would I just have to move back home again and get more experience in a school in the US since ESL doesn't count?

[PsyGuy]

If not now when??? You assume youll live to 70, and be able to collect retirement. What if you live to 100?

If you decide to go the ESL route, you will be harming yourself getting a teacher certification. Really once your doing this its like a roller coaster, you really cant get off. The reason is that once your certified theres a clock on you, because your training/education starts to become dated. Typically experience is more valuable and counteracts that. No one cares much about the teaching program a 10 year or 5 year teaching veteran had, because they have been teaching all this time. ESL is essentially leaving the profession, im really serious when I say ESL (with only a few NARROW exceptions) doesnt count. So you will be post certification, without building any marketable experience while your teaching ESL, this creates a very problematic gap in your resume. After a couple years, your certificate is already 2 years old, and you have no experience. So then you go to a IS job fair, you have no experience and your training is all ready dated by a couple years. Now make that 5 years instead of two, see the problem?

ESL DOESNT COUNT

So the only option and this is that exception really is if you get a state teaching credential in ESL and go to a real IS and teach ESL in there program. What i mean by a real IS is a school represented by Search, ISS, COIS, or a public/private K-12 school in a western country. Not some municipal school program in China, S. Korea, Thailand, or ALT in Japan, or even some small "bilingual" school program. The only way it works is if they look at your resume and recognize the name of the school as being a real International School, if you have to explain anything, forget it, it doesnt count.

[sassylassie]

I see your point. I hadn't considered it from that perspective.

Well, I guess I will go to one of the fairs and see what I can find out from talking with people who do the hiring about what my better options might be.

If nothing else, at least I will have some time to work on making myself a more attractive candidate. If I'll be teaching in the US, I might be able to add an endorsement.

I appreciate your insight.

[teacherguy]

I went to UNI with zero expectations. Besides the lack of "real" teaching experience, I had a non-teaching spouse. Two huge strikes against me. But I got a job.

Go to the UNI fair. You will get an offer or two. Head straight for the Middle East schools tables. Or any school located in a less than ideal location, or in a country packed with "international schools" like China.

What I saw at the UNI open cattle call was pretty funny. Everyone headed straight for the dream/fantasy location schools. Costa Rica, Bahamas, Spain... (There must have been 50 people waiting in the line for the school in Costa Rica. It had two openings.) I went straight to the area that had Egyptian schools. Those directors were just sitting there looking bored, no one going up to them.

[sevarem]

I know several teachers, myself included, who got jobs at decent international schools without the two years of experience. Am I at the best school in the world? No, I hate the location, but the school is good, the administration is decent, the students are great, it's a REAL international school, not a local school calling itself international, and the parents are pretty supportive. Would I stay past two years? Nope, we're planning on moving on after this year.

Point is, we (myself and my husband) did get hired and we actually had a few offers from other schools as well, all of them in China. None of them are top tier schools, but they weren't all bottom of the barrel schools either.

Never know until you try. Especially when the job market for teachers in the US is totally decimated.

ETA: I wouldn't recommend going back into ESL, only because it COULD be hard getting a job at an international school after that. That being said, I know several certified teachers that went into ESL first and then transitioned into international schools. One of them worked here last year (and was here for three) and is now working in Italy. At the same time, most of them did it right out of college. You're a bit older, so I don't know if you would want to go back to ESL.

[sassylassie]

Thanks teacherguy, it's nice to hear your story. I'm definitely planning on attending the UNI fair, and if I don't get any offers, at least I will come away having a much better idea of what to expect and how to go about getting an offer that I want.

I think the idea of possibly doing a paid internship is also a road worth exploring. My only hesitation is that money is tight this semester and I would have to find a way to scrape together an extra $225 to find out my options through Search. But I'm sure it would pay off in the end and be another good way of getting to where I want to be.

Sevarem, thanks so much for sharing your experience. It gives me hope! I agree, I might be surprised if I just get myself prepared and give it a reasonable shot. I don't mind being at a less-than-stellar location, as long as the students have a decent attitude and the administration is at least somewhat supportive.

Thanks for mentioning that you wouldn't go back to ESL, too. It's not my first choice, but I know that I can do it, do it well, and enjoy it, and it will pay the bills if I can't find anything else appealing. Mainly I just don't want to go back to that, only to find down the road that I've locked myself into either ESL forever or moving back to the US for two to three years.

It's just good to know that people have been able to find something decent without two full years of experience in a US school setting. Sometimes it's easier to move ahead with your plans when you know that other people have followed a non-cookie-cutter path and been successful too.

I know living in other countries isn't always a day at the beach, but I miss being abroad more than I thought I would.

Thanks! I really appreciate and enjoy hearing everyone's perspective!

[natalielenina]

I taught ESL in South Korea before going to graduate school to get my MA in TESOL. I taught ESOL in the US (high need area) while getting my certification. After 2 years of that, I went to a teaching job fair.

I now teach ESL at an international school abroad. The school that hired me told me time teaching in Korea was an asset.

There are a lot of Koreans all around the world, so if you want to go into teach at international schools, I would say your time in Korea would be a great thing to mention in an interview.

For what it’s worth, I love teaching ESL. I think it’s much better than being in a classroom all day with the same kids.

Good Luck!

[sassylassie]

I would have to agree with you--even though my time teaching ESL "doesn't count", I still think it can be viewed as an asset. If nothing else, it shows that I am comfortable working abroad and that I can find my way around a classroom whether I speak the same language as my students or not.

I do enjoy teaching ESL a lot. My only real issue with it is that there wasn't any real chance for promotion or other ways to increase my professional standing, at least in the particular situation that I was in. Perhaps it's because I'm getting older and am still (happily) single, but I didn't want to be in the same place ten years down the road, and then look back and feel like I should have tried harder to make a "real" career for myself (and I don't want to imply that ESL isn't a "real" career, because it is--it's just that the public elementary schools of Korea are not ever going to be a wise long-term career choice for most non-Korean westerners). But as far as the overall satisfaction goes, it was the best job I've ever had. It was 100-proof awesome sauce.

I felt that if I transitioned over to non-ESL/regular classroom teaching that I would have better options in the future, and still be able to find work abroad OR in the US (should I ever want to return long-term). Perhaps if the path to getting a MA TESOL had been as accessible and clear-cut for me as getting a M.Ed., I might have chosen to stay in ESL. But those were my own personal circumstances, and they wouldn't necessarily apply to anyone else.

Yeah, I would definitely agree that ESL experience can be viewed as an asset in many situations, even if it doesn't translate directly to a bump on the salary scale.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. :)

[natalielenina]

My school counted my Korean experience in the salary scale. Woo Hoo!