ISS not going to Boston in 2013

Rhaegar Targaryen
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 am

ISS not going to Boston in 2013

Post by Rhaegar Targaryen »

Have any of y'all noticed that ISS is not going to be in Boston in February 2013?

https://www.internationalschoolsreview. ... 1-2012.htm

http://www.iss.edu/


Thoughts?

What are people's opinions/thoughts on the dates/timeline for the other fairs?


I noticed how Search+ISS are not back-to-back in San Francisco in 2013. And--UNI's fair is first in February and several days ahead of Search's Cambridge Fair.
PsyGuy
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Comments

Post by PsyGuy »

Well no the SF fairs are back to back were talking the ISS fair from 10-14, and the Search fair from 16-18. Its a day in between for recruiters to take a breather. Those are 4 day recruiting events. Very seldom do candidates stay for both, and really the ISS fair is at the disadvantage since their fair is during the weekday (have to take time off of work to attend).

ISS is still deciding whether to have a Boston fair, last year their fair sucked, and a lot of recruiters were unhappy, which resulted in unhappy candidates as well. They also have the same problem. There fair would end up being during the week, and comes AFTER the Search fair. Its just harder to compete against with those types of disadvantages.

Yeah the UNI fair is before the Search fair, but again its a weekday fair and primarily attracts newbies, with short commute distances. People dont fly in for the UNI fair like they do Search/ISS.

ISS is just not happy or being successful competing with Search. They are going to still be competing with the BKK fair, as ISS leans more towards higher tier schools then Search. That's their market, why over expand? Were just seeing more differentiation with the recruitment agencies. ISS is also moving deeper into europe, which outside London, Search doesnt really serve very well (part of the reason is to lure recruiters to more exotic and desirable locations, I understand they are looking at Spain, and Italy as well, and a possible Singapore fair).
Walter
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More misinformation.

Post by Walter »

1) ISS have never run consecutive fairs in Boston. Some years ago they established a four year circuit:Boston / New York / DC / San Fran. Costs soared in NY and DC which is why they now rotate between Boston and SF.
2) The idea that ISS caters for the "high tier" schools is laughable. They cater for any who want to attend because that is their business. Meanwhile, take a look at the SEARCH list of attending schools. All the top schools are there. Years ago, when ISS and UNI were the only games in town, they both had fairs of 600+ candidates. ISS in particular has lost out to SEARCH because they have a better recruitment model, and because ISS made significant tactical mistakes in responding to SEARCH when they first came on to the market.
3) A few years ago, when the recruitment fair wars were at a height and organizations were switching dates to try to get one over their rivals, UNI took the decision that they were going to stop playing that game and just settled on the first weekend of February. Their view is that if there is a conflict, so be it; they have their own market of candidates and some very loyal schools who will always go there.
4) It would be no surprise to me if ISS were to quit the teacher recruitment
game. My guess is that they are losing considerable money doing this and their reputation is taking a hit.
PsyGuy
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Sorry

Post by PsyGuy »

ISS always parked their Boston fair next to Searchs, because the Search fair was one of their biggest. The rational being that more schools would show up for the Search fair and stay for the ISS fair out of convenience. The SF fair has always been a small fair site.

ISS caters to the higher end schools. Most of ISSs schools are also search schools, but ISS decided some years ago they wanted to focus on being the best not the biggest. ISS has about 150 schools, and Search just under 700. Search has lower standards though then ISS. You dont find the number of third and second tier schools with ISS.

Agree, actually the different agencies were always trying to one up another for position in the recruiting calendar. Searches approach was to be everywhere, and they have the most fairs. UNI people settled on a date, and that was it. UNI appeals to a certain niche, and they have a pretty loyal following. Being a university they dont have to hustle like Search/ISS does.

ISS isnt going to leave the recruitment game. Their just diverging from competing with Search. They arent going to follow Search around, and move into different regions that Search isnt in, and expand their fairs to be more conference like, instead of focusing SOLELY on recruiting at their events. Their expansion includes, topic panels, guest seminars, university program recruiting, etc.
Rhaegar Targaryen
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 am

Post by Rhaegar Targaryen »

PsyGuy--

Look at the link. ISS is in San Fran February 10-14, 2013. Search is in San Fran February 28-March 3, 2013.
Rhaegar Targaryen
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 am

Post by Rhaegar Targaryen »

PsyGuy--

I liked that ISS Fair in Boston in February 2012. I liked it better than the Search Fair in Cambridge in February 2012. However, it was probably because I was focused solely on one country and only a few schools and a few positions.

Maybe--if I was open to a variety of schools and locales (like I was back in 2003), I might've liked the Search Fair more.
PsyGuy
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No

Post by PsyGuy »

No, Please check the links as follows:

Search will be in SF Feb. 16-18

http://www.searchassociates.com/Job-Fairs/Default.aspx

ISS will be in SF Feb. 10-14

https://www.iss.edu/about-us/event

Everyone has a preference, if NO ONE liked ISS more then Search, then there would not be an ISS recruitment section at all. They each have niches, for some people ISS is a better agency then Search, for many people Search is a better choice. When it comes to a general position search, Search has just under 700 schools, ISS about 150. Given that ISS has a higher percentage of top tier schools, that's compared to their overall database. They both have about the same number of top tier schools, and almost all of the big ones overlap. The dynamics of the fairs are that Search is either earlier or on the weekend. If ISS was serious they would move their competing fairs to the weekend before Searchs.
Rhaegar Targaryen
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 am

Post by Rhaegar Targaryen »

Oopsies...

I was going by the dates on this link:

https://www.internationalschoolsreview. ... 1-2012.htm
Rhaegar Targaryen
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Joined: Mon Jan 16, 2012 3:10 am

Post by Rhaegar Targaryen »

I do think it would be wise for ISS to move their fairs to the weekend before Search.


Sigh--I kinda miss the days of ISS and UNI being the only games in town...
PsyGuy
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Well.

Post by PsyGuy »

That's what collaboration is all about.

They have been chasing the Search tail for a while now, their view is that if they dont "follow" Search, and force admins to take a stand, the recruiters will choose Search over ISS. Its a valid concern too. Most admins wouldnt turn 2 fairs into a 10 day trip, and flying back and forth to the same place consecutive weekends would be prohibitively expensive. The question recruiters would ask and wrestle with; is it better to go first (ISS) or go big (Search)?

I miss the OLD ISS, when they were the big fish and UNI was the little fish, ISS was more relaxed and spent more time with the individual candidates. Now ISS has this aura of desperation, that if a candidate isnt going to pay off, and pay off quickly, they don't bother. I think ISS is making a wise decision to differentiate themselves in the "pond" again. Different locations (France is this year), and expanded "conferences". Some of the things ISS has planed for future conferences include:

1) School recruiting (OK that was a given).
2) College/University (Degree/Certification) School Programs.
3) Volunteer/Work Summer Programs (Huge number of international summer camps/programs run by various schools).
4) Educational Supply.
5) Financial Services.
6) Travel Products.

Some of these will be aimed at candidates, some at recruiters, and some at both.
Walter
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More Bunkum

Post by Walter »

"ISS always parked their Boston fair next to Searchs, because the Search fair was one of their biggest. The rational being that more schools would show up for the Search fair and stay for the ISS fair out of convenience. The SF fair has always been a small fair site.

ISS caters to the higher end schools. Most of ISSs schools are also search schools, but ISS decided some years ago they wanted to focus on being the best not the biggest. ISS has about 150 schools, and Search just under 700. Search has lower standards though then ISS. You dont find the number of third and second tier schools with ISS."

This is such nonsense, it´s frightening. Who told you this, or did you make it up yourself?

ISS, UNI and CIS had the recruitment fair game sewn up for years until SEARCH moved in to the market. After trying the Australia/NZ location, tthey decided to pitch themselves against first ISS in the USA and then CIS in London. Their strategy was the same. SEARCH picked the weekend before the other organizations´fairs working on the premise that for convenience´s sake, recruiters would as soon go to two fairs for the price of one airline ticket. SEARCH did exactly the same in Bangkok after the first successful ISS fair there.

This tactic so annoyed ISS and CIS that they worked together to try to freeze SEARCH out of the market, which led to the "Fair Wars" about 10 years ago. They were unsuccessful and the organizations have since arrived at an uneasy truce. But get this: ISS never parked their fair after SEARCH - it was always the other way round!!!

As for ISS taking a decision to be the smaller fair catering to the high end schools - that is just as ridiculous a statement. ISS would kill to get back the numbers they once had. They have been outsold and outgunned by SEARCH, and that is why they are smaller now. There is NO active choice made by the ISS Board or Executive Secretary.

This is information that you can´t get through GOOGLE. You have to know what happened. Plainly you don´t know, so stop showing off by pretending that you do.
PsyGuy
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No you cant

Post by PsyGuy »

No you cant get it from google which is why your probably wrong, and why I dont need to pretend I know, when I actually do.

First, theres about 20 years between ISS and UNI. UNI was a college international fair, and wasnt even in the same league as ISS. They werent competitors or collaborators. When was aimed at professional teachers and one at college students.

Second, Search could just have easily picked the weekend AFTER the ISS fair, under the same logic of 2 fairs for 1. Other then that your agreeing with me that the Search fair is the earlier fair.

Third, what you imagine to be a fair war, is just that imagination. Search identified and pursued the schools that ISS wouldnt serve/accept. As Searchs school base swelled, more of the higher tier schools also signed with Search, under the concern that they would "miss out" if they didnt. Many (almost all) of the top tier schools are represented by multipyle agencies, and before then the top schools (primarily the DOS schools, and the UK counterparts) were already listed in the DOS and COBIS databases, and as a free resource were one of the first places a prospective teacher looked as an international teacher.

Forth, I doubt ISS would agree with your conclusions. ISS never "lost" the numbers, they just never gained them as big and fast as Search did. ISS DECIDED early on in their competition that they needed to define their market separately from Search, as competition was going to be unproductive and drain resources. Searchs business model was to be the biggest and ISS DECIDED that they were going to be the best, and to do so though exclusivity. ISS was going to market themselves as fine dining, and let Search take the fast food approach.

Fifth, ISS wouldn't kill for the numbers that Search has. They have evolved separately from each other for either one to become the other. Search is a recruitment agency, ISS is a school service firm that in part provides recruiting. Neither one of them can switch places with the other and succeed as they are now.

Lastly, this is all old history and academic anyway. That was then this is now. Its been a while now that ISS has had to pretty much follow Searches lead when it comes to recruitment fairs. If they were really interested in raising the numbers they would hold their fair before Searches, to at least have "first pick".
ISS wont dump recruiting, if for no other reason then it "rounds out" the comprehensiveness of their services. Compared to other organizations, ISS is too much of a generalist, and they dont do any specific service function particularly well, but its too late for them to focus and specialize.

One of their marketing plans for the future, they have been tossing around is "lifetime" candidate membership (since agencies make the real money from the school on a placement, not from candidates membership fees).
Walter
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Dave "so stubborn" Psyguy

Post by Walter »

You've done it again - managed to be wrong on every significant issue.
Why did SEARCH pick the weekends before the ISS and ECIS/CIS fairs? Because the recruitment organizations see a definite advantage in being first. nothing is more frustrating for the organizers or for recruiters than to have last minute candidate "no shows" - and this is a frequent occurrence when there is a fair the weekend before. A significant number of candidates book into the second fair as a back up and then withdraw if they get a job at the first fair.
The fair wars really began in 2003 when out of the blue ISS moved forward its fair by one week hoping to force SEARCH to swap places. Instead, SEARCH simply moved its own fair forward by one week to clash with ECIS/CIS. That problem was only resolved three years ago. Meantime because of the perceived advantage of being first, CIS and SEARCH reached an agreement to alternate the London Fairs. That happened two years ago.
ISS was the biggest fair in the game. I first attended as a recruiter in 1989. There were close to 700 candidates and 200 schools. It was in the mid-90s that SEARCH really began to impinge upon the market.
ISS Bangkok arbitrarily switched their dates two years ago so that they would go first - despite an offer from SEARCH that they would accept the same agreement as was made in LOndon with the fairs alternating. ISS refused and annoyed many recruiters because the ISS fair now backs into the Christmas vacation.
You see Dave, I really know because I am involved in these conversations. Since you don't believe me (or anyone else who points out your many and various errors), why don't you ask a school head who has been in the game for some time? But preferably not the kind of cheapskate head who sends out junior, junior admins to skulk around uninvited at recruitment fairs.
PsyGuy
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Sigh

Post by PsyGuy »

Im starting to feel like you dont know what being right and wrong means. Thank you for finally agreeing with me that being "first"/early with a fair is an advantage. You didnt have to spend the whole first half of your post to agree with me.

The "fair wars', seriously, you want to get that dramatic about it? it wasnt a war. Searchs model was to simply blanket the recruiting field with their fairs, eventually becoming the agency that was everywhere. If you have a fair every weekend, its not a war, its an organization strategy with a lack of options.

ISS the biggest, the biggest compared to what, they were the only real game before Search came along, to be the "biggest" you have to have something to compare too. Yes, they were the biggest of a group of one (themselves). Im also the smartest person in the room, when Im the only one in the room.

ISS (nor Search, UNI, etc for that matter) doesnt do anything "out of the blue" or "arbitrarily". ISS didnt back their fair into Christmas on a whim, they did so as a calculated strategy with the intent of being more attractive to candidates on break, who wouldnt have to take time off work to attend a fair. Despite the feelings of the recruiters (who deserve a holiday like everyone else) the agencies dont always act whats in the best interests of making recruiters "happy". ISS made a smart play, by forcing Searches hand in makinga decision, in this case it paid off for them having to compete with the COIS fair. This wasnt about "organization" or timing it was about creating tension between Search and COIS.

I have these conversations as well, though the individuals I converse with discuss actual events and information, as opposed to your conversations which seem to involve a lot of guessing and speculation.
Walter
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Dave Psyguy

Post by Walter »

You know, I'm really not sure you're the smartest person in the room when only you are there.
You contradict yourself time after time in your posts and seem not to notice. Just go back to the beginning and read through the nonsense you write and see how you shift and bend.
As for ISS being the only game in town before SEARCH came along, that's more baloney. UNI was always a 600+ fair as was ECIS.
Meanwhile ISS's whimsical decision to back their fair onto the Christmas break has cost them dear with the numbers attending the fair down each year. You see if recruiters don't attend then the candidates won't either.
As for the decision by ISS to move their US fair forward by a week back in 2003, that had nothing to do with trying to provoke tension between CIS and SEARCH. Their gamble was that SEARCH wouldn't dare go head to head with CIS - a gamble that failed. By this time, incidentally, CIS and ISS were already in a tacit partnership to try to freeze out SEARCH.

All of this may seem arcane and irrelevant to most readers, but the fact is that there is a history here and the facts should be respected. There are enough myths and lies circulating in the field of international education without people like you adding to them through vanity posts.
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