I'd like to second Shadowjack's comment on airfare/reimbursements. My current job and my next job both had/has me purchase my airfare and get reimbursed. In fact, at my current job, I also had to pay for my IB training and then get reimbursed once I started working. That one did worry me, but I was reimbursed within a day of showing receipts once I started work.
I don't think that reimbursement needs to raise any red-flags. I am sure there are schools that don't require it, but there are plenty of decent schools out there that do go the reimbursement route for initial tickets/trainings. It makes sense to me-- if the person decides not to show up for the contract, they aren't stuck having paid for your ticket or your IB training.
Conditional Offers
I'd like to second Shadowjack's comment on airfare/reimbursements. My current job and my next job both had/has me purchase my airfare and get reimbursed. In fact, at my current job, I also had to pay for my IB training and then get reimbursed once I started working. That one did worry me, but I was reimbursed within a day of showing receipts once I started work.
I don't think that reimbursement needs to raise any red-flags. I am sure there are schools that don't require it, but there are plenty of decent schools out there that do go the reimbursement route for initial tickets/trainings. It makes sense to me-- if the person decides not to show up for the contract, they aren't stuck having paid for your ticket or your IB training.
I don't think that reimbursement needs to raise any red-flags. I am sure there are schools that don't require it, but there are plenty of decent schools out there that do go the reimbursement route for initial tickets/trainings. It makes sense to me-- if the person decides not to show up for the contract, they aren't stuck having paid for your ticket or your IB training.
Check with other teachers from the school, but it is not unusual to pay upfront for relocation costs and then get reimbursed. It is because of teachers like higgy who take a job offer and don't show up. Schools need a way to make sure their new hires show up. Now, there are schools that might try to take advantage of you. This is why you need thing in writing and you should confirm with people who work at the school. Fortunately, I have always been reimbursed. Some times it took more than a month after I got to a school, but I never had issues and I've always bought my own tickets.
And, I occur with Sid. A signed provisional contract means you've agreed. Communicate with the school to find out if everything is confirmed on their end. My guess is they had no problems with your references and they assume everything is in motion for you to join next year. Contact them and let them know you want to begin researching for your move there. If you do not want the job, tell them right away. Treat people the way you want to be treated.
And, I occur with Sid. A signed provisional contract means you've agreed. Communicate with the school to find out if everything is confirmed on their end. My guess is they had no problems with your references and they assume everything is in motion for you to join next year. Contact them and let them know you want to begin researching for your move there. If you do not want the job, tell them right away. Treat people the way you want to be treated.
I've had schools pay up front and some wait for you to arrive. I personally think it is easier first time for the school to reimburse you on arrival because they will reimburse your visa, relocation etc all in one go. There is also the issue that you can personally make sure your whole family is on the flight. My poor daughter...almost had to leave her in Amsterdam. Fortunately I was annoying enough for them to throw someone else off the flight instead. Wasn't really the school's fault, but easier to complain if they charged your credit card.
I would only wait a week for a conditional offer to materialize. But I would still search as though I didn't have it.
I would only wait a week for a conditional offer to materialize. But I would still search as though I didn't have it.
There is a school in Vietnam that is imfamous for shorting staff on flight money and for making staff wait so long for settling in payment that the teachers often had tp take out loans from the school and pay interest.
They always say that the teacher has paid to much for the flight and supply a quote from a local agency that is very cheap. they then split the difference.
The same school has been knowb to sack paople and retain the last months pay.
They always say that the teacher has paid to much for the flight and supply a quote from a local agency that is very cheap. they then split the difference.
The same school has been knowb to sack paople and retain the last months pay.
Reply
@Singablesong
Understand first that their really is no such thing as a conditional or provisional contract. When a school makes a conditional/provisional offer/contract what it really means is that there are certain exit clauses in the contract that in the vast majority of cases allow a school to exit (break) the contract without penalty of suffering a breach. This is an important difference, because the school rights the contract and unless the law in that region requires it, exit clauses almost always benefit the school without providing the candidate with any recourse. Essentially, the contract is binding on both of you, but the school can legally get out of it, and you cant. These conditional contracts have become more numerous this year, and are the new "string along". Instead of just keeping a candidate on hold and waiting schools are offering conditional contracts knowing they can exit/break them later without repercussions.
A few issues and observations with your situation:
Admins can be lazy and its not uncommon to use a document as a "template", essentially changing relevant information such as names, dates, etc and reusing the same document. Sometimes when reusing the document the admin overlooks a part of the document and leaves something in. I dont know what was in the document that indicated it was made to someone else, but since a "offer letter", summary of offer or MOU (memorandum of understanding), is a technical if not legal document (its more technical then legal) its very likely the admin/recruiter is reusing it for multiple candidates and offers.
That being said its also possible the school is setting up several conditional offers for the same position. They offer two conditional offers for the same position, and assuming their first choice is still onboard by July/August they just rescind the second choice offer claiming they couldnt secure you a visa, or immigration denied your permit, etc. If the first choice doesnt show or cancels, they just proceed with the second choice as if nothing happened.
A month is an unacceptable time to wait on a conditional offer. Anything longer then a week is a warning. A month with no contact or even an update is just lazy and unprofessional. Human Resources/Personnel have a job to do, and that means maintaining communication with their employees. If they are TRULY too busy to send of an email in a month with an update, then its a poorly run school, and strong evidence of how the organization will function in the future.
Sids response "that maybe they have" is a load of bull, its HRs professional obligation to follow through on the job, that means the task isnt over until its over and the HR professional has communicated the status of all tasking assignments to the relevant parties. The jobs not done until the people doing the job report that the jobs done. If the job isnt done then you update the current status to those people who need to know, and yes that includes the teacher. Its not the candidates job to pester HR with updates, professionals do their jobs without being prodded with a stick. If they cant take 30 seconds to write you an email, saying "we havent forgotten you, we are still processing your paperwork for immigration. We will contact you again in couple weeks with another update", then it means they dont value you as an assett to their organization, and they dont value you period.
Schools have finally caught on that they can do a background check online at a fair. It doesnt take more then a day or two at most to verify a degree, and teaching credentials can be checked online in a matter of minutes. Assuming your at a fair and have confidential references on file, their is no reason a school cant make a firm offer in a couple of days. They just dont want to.
What was the first schools definition of "ASAP" did they say what a reporting/travel date would be? A month with NO contact is a long lead time for an immediate hire.
What was the reason given (if you asked) for the schools immediate vacancy. There are only 2 reasons for an immediate vacancy: 1) Someone pulled a runner, 2) Catastrophic emergency. Certain schools are more prone to the former then the latter. Your school sounds like the former.
The lack of a signature on whatever your offer was (its not likely a contract), while technically defensible isnt going to matter to an agency or other recruiters. You can lie and say your not under contract, and havent broken contract, and its highly likely that aside from your agency no one else will know, its still a deception. Personally, I'm okay with that, but this is you not me were talking about.
If you exit the first contract for whatever reason, your agency (if any) is going to consider you a contract breaker. the reason is that as mentioned above your contract really is a binding contract, even if the school can exit the contract. Second, even if the contract was unfair, you knew what it was when you signed it. They will ask if you even called the school for an update and to discuss the issue. Your agency is likely to ban you for a couple years in this case.
i do agree with Sid that the contract technicalities are just rationalizations, so lets put them aside for a moment. If this was June/July, and your school hadnt contacted you about travel arrangements etc, and was "avoiding" you and you had another school interested in you would you take dump the old school and go with the new school? BECAUSE thats what this is really about if anything. There is a law (at least as close as consistent behaviors get to a law in this profession) that "When a school wants you, they act like they really want you", they dont play hard to get, they dont play the waiting game, they dont feign disinterest, they dont make excuses.
@National
Good schools dont use their teachers/employees as financial insurance. Schools that has a reimbursment policy either have absorbed losses in the past (which necessitates asking WHY? If they are such a great school they shouldnt have people leaving them with loses) or have unstable finances. Booking airfare for a school is easy, its 5 minutes on the internet and a credit card. Visas are the same exact way, a school can just as easily make payment arrangements with either the appropriate consulate or through a third . visa processor. Lower tier schools just choose not too.
@AnnieT
Sounds like ISHCMC
Understand first that their really is no such thing as a conditional or provisional contract. When a school makes a conditional/provisional offer/contract what it really means is that there are certain exit clauses in the contract that in the vast majority of cases allow a school to exit (break) the contract without penalty of suffering a breach. This is an important difference, because the school rights the contract and unless the law in that region requires it, exit clauses almost always benefit the school without providing the candidate with any recourse. Essentially, the contract is binding on both of you, but the school can legally get out of it, and you cant. These conditional contracts have become more numerous this year, and are the new "string along". Instead of just keeping a candidate on hold and waiting schools are offering conditional contracts knowing they can exit/break them later without repercussions.
A few issues and observations with your situation:
Admins can be lazy and its not uncommon to use a document as a "template", essentially changing relevant information such as names, dates, etc and reusing the same document. Sometimes when reusing the document the admin overlooks a part of the document and leaves something in. I dont know what was in the document that indicated it was made to someone else, but since a "offer letter", summary of offer or MOU (memorandum of understanding), is a technical if not legal document (its more technical then legal) its very likely the admin/recruiter is reusing it for multiple candidates and offers.
That being said its also possible the school is setting up several conditional offers for the same position. They offer two conditional offers for the same position, and assuming their first choice is still onboard by July/August they just rescind the second choice offer claiming they couldnt secure you a visa, or immigration denied your permit, etc. If the first choice doesnt show or cancels, they just proceed with the second choice as if nothing happened.
A month is an unacceptable time to wait on a conditional offer. Anything longer then a week is a warning. A month with no contact or even an update is just lazy and unprofessional. Human Resources/Personnel have a job to do, and that means maintaining communication with their employees. If they are TRULY too busy to send of an email in a month with an update, then its a poorly run school, and strong evidence of how the organization will function in the future.
Sids response "that maybe they have" is a load of bull, its HRs professional obligation to follow through on the job, that means the task isnt over until its over and the HR professional has communicated the status of all tasking assignments to the relevant parties. The jobs not done until the people doing the job report that the jobs done. If the job isnt done then you update the current status to those people who need to know, and yes that includes the teacher. Its not the candidates job to pester HR with updates, professionals do their jobs without being prodded with a stick. If they cant take 30 seconds to write you an email, saying "we havent forgotten you, we are still processing your paperwork for immigration. We will contact you again in couple weeks with another update", then it means they dont value you as an assett to their organization, and they dont value you period.
Schools have finally caught on that they can do a background check online at a fair. It doesnt take more then a day or two at most to verify a degree, and teaching credentials can be checked online in a matter of minutes. Assuming your at a fair and have confidential references on file, their is no reason a school cant make a firm offer in a couple of days. They just dont want to.
What was the first schools definition of "ASAP" did they say what a reporting/travel date would be? A month with NO contact is a long lead time for an immediate hire.
What was the reason given (if you asked) for the schools immediate vacancy. There are only 2 reasons for an immediate vacancy: 1) Someone pulled a runner, 2) Catastrophic emergency. Certain schools are more prone to the former then the latter. Your school sounds like the former.
The lack of a signature on whatever your offer was (its not likely a contract), while technically defensible isnt going to matter to an agency or other recruiters. You can lie and say your not under contract, and havent broken contract, and its highly likely that aside from your agency no one else will know, its still a deception. Personally, I'm okay with that, but this is you not me were talking about.
If you exit the first contract for whatever reason, your agency (if any) is going to consider you a contract breaker. the reason is that as mentioned above your contract really is a binding contract, even if the school can exit the contract. Second, even if the contract was unfair, you knew what it was when you signed it. They will ask if you even called the school for an update and to discuss the issue. Your agency is likely to ban you for a couple years in this case.
i do agree with Sid that the contract technicalities are just rationalizations, so lets put them aside for a moment. If this was June/July, and your school hadnt contacted you about travel arrangements etc, and was "avoiding" you and you had another school interested in you would you take dump the old school and go with the new school? BECAUSE thats what this is really about if anything. There is a law (at least as close as consistent behaviors get to a law in this profession) that "When a school wants you, they act like they really want you", they dont play hard to get, they dont play the waiting game, they dont feign disinterest, they dont make excuses.
@National
Good schools dont use their teachers/employees as financial insurance. Schools that has a reimbursment policy either have absorbed losses in the past (which necessitates asking WHY? If they are such a great school they shouldnt have people leaving them with loses) or have unstable finances. Booking airfare for a school is easy, its 5 minutes on the internet and a credit card. Visas are the same exact way, a school can just as easily make payment arrangements with either the appropriate consulate or through a third . visa processor. Lower tier schools just choose not too.
@AnnieT
Sounds like ISHCMC
@psyguy
I take issue with your claim that "good" schools don't go the reimbursement route. The school I am moving to next year was listed by you in a few other threads as a tier 1 school. They reimburse for flights. I am also fairly certain that finances are not an issue -- they have an amazing relocation allowance and pay well. Of course, I don't know everything about their finances and I am sure you will say that they reimburse because they must financially. I don't think this is the case, however. I think they do it because it is not uncommon and it is a way to ensure that they don't pay up-front for someone who may or may not arrive. Things come up and people don't show up at some of the best schools. This is also not always an indication of a shady school. I grant that shady schools will have more of this happen to them, but it happening is not a sure sign the school is "bad".
I am sure that many "bad" schools might use reimbursement as a way to screw new teachers, but not all schools that reimburse are looking to do that. The problem with your posts are the blanket statements. To argue that reimbursing is something only "bad" schools do is just false. Schools you have identified as top-tier do it.
I take issue with your claim that "good" schools don't go the reimbursement route. The school I am moving to next year was listed by you in a few other threads as a tier 1 school. They reimburse for flights. I am also fairly certain that finances are not an issue -- they have an amazing relocation allowance and pay well. Of course, I don't know everything about their finances and I am sure you will say that they reimburse because they must financially. I don't think this is the case, however. I think they do it because it is not uncommon and it is a way to ensure that they don't pay up-front for someone who may or may not arrive. Things come up and people don't show up at some of the best schools. This is also not always an indication of a shady school. I grant that shady schools will have more of this happen to them, but it happening is not a sure sign the school is "bad".
I am sure that many "bad" schools might use reimbursement as a way to screw new teachers, but not all schools that reimburse are looking to do that. The problem with your posts are the blanket statements. To argue that reimbursing is something only "bad" schools do is just false. Schools you have identified as top-tier do it.
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lifeisnotsobad
- Posts: 133
- Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 3:37 pm
@Singablesong
I think you can probably thank higgsbosom and anyone else like him for schools that don't pay up front. If you have paid for your ticket at least there is a good chance that you will show up.
By the way...if you have seen previous posts from him you will know that higgsbosom specialises in targeting what he would classify as Tier 3 schools with crap admin. Like will always seek out like.
I think you can probably thank higgsbosom and anyone else like him for schools that don't pay up front. If you have paid for your ticket at least there is a good chance that you will show up.
By the way...if you have seen previous posts from him you will know that higgsbosom specialises in targeting what he would classify as Tier 3 schools with crap admin. Like will always seek out like.
Comment
@National
Those are nice ideas, but you are applying an "individual" travel framework to an organization, and the two are not remotely the same.
When an organization has a travel arrangement agreement it doesnt "buy" a ticket and then "lose" it if the teacher doesnt show. If you buy a ticket and dont show, you have typically a year to use the value of the ticket towards another flight after paying a change fee. Organizations get the same thing except their fee is lower, and those credits just go intoa pool of credits the school can use on the next airfare. Since they purchase travel for a relatively larger number of people including not only incoming teachers and outgoing teachers, but also training, conferences, recruitment fairs, consultants, etc they are far more likely to use the value of that "lost" ticket.
At worst I need to re-evaluate this tier 1 school, maybe its slipping. Another possibility is that the school provides direct tickets to some of its teachers,a dn reimburses other teachers.
yes their are always exceptions thats an underlying assumption, but its unimportant. Im not interested in the exceptions, or the outliers, the otherwise "1%" . The existence of those exceptions dont invalidate or trivialize the other 99% that very accurately describes the characteristics of "good and bad" schools.
Really thats an admin cheerleader position "if something isnt universaally and always true then its false and we dont have to worry about it", becuase really thats what admins want to do, is blur the distinctions between schools and the quality of those schools so that the VAST majority of them dont have to worry or deal with being less then an "elite" school.
Assuming your right a few good school that reimburse doesnt change the meaning and importance that the much larger majority of schools that reimburse or bottom tier schools.
Those are nice ideas, but you are applying an "individual" travel framework to an organization, and the two are not remotely the same.
When an organization has a travel arrangement agreement it doesnt "buy" a ticket and then "lose" it if the teacher doesnt show. If you buy a ticket and dont show, you have typically a year to use the value of the ticket towards another flight after paying a change fee. Organizations get the same thing except their fee is lower, and those credits just go intoa pool of credits the school can use on the next airfare. Since they purchase travel for a relatively larger number of people including not only incoming teachers and outgoing teachers, but also training, conferences, recruitment fairs, consultants, etc they are far more likely to use the value of that "lost" ticket.
At worst I need to re-evaluate this tier 1 school, maybe its slipping. Another possibility is that the school provides direct tickets to some of its teachers,a dn reimburses other teachers.
yes their are always exceptions thats an underlying assumption, but its unimportant. Im not interested in the exceptions, or the outliers, the otherwise "1%" . The existence of those exceptions dont invalidate or trivialize the other 99% that very accurately describes the characteristics of "good and bad" schools.
Really thats an admin cheerleader position "if something isnt universaally and always true then its false and we dont have to worry about it", becuase really thats what admins want to do, is blur the distinctions between schools and the quality of those schools so that the VAST majority of them dont have to worry or deal with being less then an "elite" school.
Assuming your right a few good school that reimburse doesnt change the meaning and importance that the much larger majority of schools that reimburse or bottom tier schools.
If only I were still teaching Greek tragedy...
This would be a perfect example of hubris:
"At worst I need to re-evaluate this tier 1 school, maybe its slipping."
"At worst I need to re-evaluate this tier 1 school, maybe its slipping."
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expatteacher99
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:46 am
I'm another one who has had to purchase my own ticket before, for "good" or "great" schools. We were always reimbursed in a timely manner. We don't mind buying our own flights because it gives us a lot more control over flight schedules and choice of airline - which affects frequent flier miles, baggage allowance, comfort, etc. I've also had tickets purchased by the school, and it was basically, "Here's your ticket. Deal with it." Sometimes even at a good school, the HR people are local and haven't traveled much internationally, so they don't understand how annoying unnecessary stops and very long layovers can be.
Granted, I can imagine scenarios in which bad schools do screw over new teachers by not reimbursing the whole amount or delaying reimbursement for many months. I agree with the advice to do your research and maybe try to ask current teachers about the reimbursement process.
Granted, I can imagine scenarios in which bad schools do screw over new teachers by not reimbursing the whole amount or delaying reimbursement for many months. I agree with the advice to do your research and maybe try to ask current teachers about the reimbursement process.
Discussion
@Walter
"If only I were still teaching Greek tragedy"
I didnt know you taught current events?
@expatteacher99
You can have a lot of control over airlines and flight schedule when a school purchases your tickets as well. You tell/email the school the flight, date and airline and the school purchases the ticket, how is that an issue?
Assuming the school had professional competent staff and all other factors being equal are you claiming you would still prefer spending your own money as opposed to the schools when resolving your travel arrangements?
"If only I were still teaching Greek tragedy"
I didnt know you taught current events?
@expatteacher99
You can have a lot of control over airlines and flight schedule when a school purchases your tickets as well. You tell/email the school the flight, date and airline and the school purchases the ticket, how is that an issue?
Assuming the school had professional competent staff and all other factors being equal are you claiming you would still prefer spending your own money as opposed to the schools when resolving your travel arrangements?
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expatteacher99
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:46 am
The "issue" (which really isn't that big of an issue - I wasn't complaining about schools that purchase tickets for you) is that not all schools operate that way. I've been at schools that most would describe as Tier 1 or Tier 2, yet they still don't give teachers the freedom to choose their own flight. It would be nice if all schools did, and it seems easy enough, but western logic isn't always used by HR personnel in other parts of the world.
"Assuming the school had professional competent staff and all other factors being equal are you claiming you would still prefer spending your own money as opposed to the schools when resolving your travel arrangements?"
No, I would't "still" prefer it. I never said I preferred it at all. I said I didn't mind. I'm not going to refuse a job, or automatically label a school as terrible just because they ask me to book my own flight. It doesn't bother me, because I can see the advantages of it. Assuming I'm heading to a reputable school, I'm not going to get worked up about something like the ticket purchase/reimbursement process.
"Assuming the school had professional competent staff and all other factors being equal are you claiming you would still prefer spending your own money as opposed to the schools when resolving your travel arrangements?"
No, I would't "still" prefer it. I never said I preferred it at all. I said I didn't mind. I'm not going to refuse a job, or automatically label a school as terrible just because they ask me to book my own flight. It doesn't bother me, because I can see the advantages of it. Assuming I'm heading to a reputable school, I'm not going to get worked up about something like the ticket purchase/reimbursement process.
Seems I messed up here...
"At worst I need to re-evaluate this tier 1 school, maybe its slipping."
I was making fun of Dave Jaw's irrepressible self-importance and the prepsterous value he attached to his Orski evaluation mechanism, but, in talking to colleague school heads, I discover that, having been down-graded by Dave, the next step is for the Board to leave the head in a locked room with a loaded revolver.
Dave, I am sorry. I shall never laugh at you again...
I was making fun of Dave Jaw's irrepressible self-importance and the prepsterous value he attached to his Orski evaluation mechanism, but, in talking to colleague school heads, I discover that, having been down-graded by Dave, the next step is for the Board to leave the head in a locked room with a loaded revolver.
Dave, I am sorry. I shall never laugh at you again...
Discussion
@Walter
I wasnt offended, I was referring to the Greek Euro Crises, and was curious if you actually still taught in a classroom? The vast majority of admins just manage from their big chairs. Its highly commendable if you teach an actual class with students, and i was assuming you taught some kind of current events elective.
@expatteacher99
I realize that not all schools operate that way. The schools that reimburse are lower quality schools then the ones that take their human resource obligations seriously, and dont offload their human resources and financial limitations/burdens on their teachers/faculty.
Its not western logic, its business logic. Operations (such as travel) have costs, those costs are paid by the enterprise. The business then collects revenue based on marketing its product. These revenues (in a successful business) then exceed the costs. Thats how it works. The business pays (costs) for labor and raw materials, and sells its finished product that generates revenue for the business. Thats not a western thing, its a business thing, and its taught in every introduction to business class/course the world over.
I would decline an offer from a school, that didnt provide direct travel arrangements, and I would mind. Reputable schools dont pass on the costs associated with doing business to their employes.
I wasnt offended, I was referring to the Greek Euro Crises, and was curious if you actually still taught in a classroom? The vast majority of admins just manage from their big chairs. Its highly commendable if you teach an actual class with students, and i was assuming you taught some kind of current events elective.
@expatteacher99
I realize that not all schools operate that way. The schools that reimburse are lower quality schools then the ones that take their human resource obligations seriously, and dont offload their human resources and financial limitations/burdens on their teachers/faculty.
Its not western logic, its business logic. Operations (such as travel) have costs, those costs are paid by the enterprise. The business then collects revenue based on marketing its product. These revenues (in a successful business) then exceed the costs. Thats how it works. The business pays (costs) for labor and raw materials, and sells its finished product that generates revenue for the business. Thats not a western thing, its a business thing, and its taught in every introduction to business class/course the world over.
I would decline an offer from a school, that didnt provide direct travel arrangements, and I would mind. Reputable schools dont pass on the costs associated with doing business to their employes.