I have been reading this thread with interest, as I have just been completing some paperwork for my new school.
One of the documents refers to my medical history and is pretty exhaustive (and intrusive!).
It also has a blurb on the bottom that lying (or omission of information) would be grounds for termination of the contract. It may also void the health insurance coverage.
I think the bottom line is that the sort of rights we are used to in places like the USA may not apply in international schools - and the school I am going to is one of the schools that is often mentioned in this forum as one of the top schools in Asia.
I had nothing serious to report medical wise, so it is easy for me to say this - however, I would be err on the side of honesty, taking the position that if a school dumped me on the grounds of a past medical problem, it would not be the sort of place I want to work.
In terms of timing, I would not be raising this at the interview stage. More, after the job has been offered to me stage.
Pre-Existing Medical Conditions/Extended Medical Leave
Hallier
Pay no attention to Dave Psyguy. In matters of law, as in much else, he is as Macbeth describes: "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."
"It also has a blurb on the bottom that lying (or omission of information) would be grounds for termination of the contract. It may also void the health insurance coverage."
While it is true that contract law is subservient to public policy (ie local labor law - unless the contract is more generous to the employee than public policy), the fact is that in many parts of the world a significant act of dishonesty or culpable omission of salient facts at the time of hire would always be grounds for dismissal. You may try to appeal the dismissal, but how feasible would that be in, say, Vietnam or Venezuala? Could you afford to pay a lawyer. Would the lawyer have the language skills to understand you? Would the courts? Could you afford to stay in the country while the case was settled?
There is a bigger question though, and that is a moral one - an area where Dave Psyguy also needs Learning Support. You have a right to expect a school administrator to tell you the truth when you are hired; there is a reciprocal obligation on you to tell the truth. My school has a very generous health policy. However, the one pre-condition it does exclude is HIV/AIDS. Don't you think it would be reckless for me to hire someone with HIV/AIDS knowing that there would be no private health insurance in case he fell sick or was injured?
Many schools have insurance providers who disallow any pre-conditions. If they accept their duty of care to their employees, then they really should not hire people who won't be covered unless there is an agreement in black and white that the employee accepts all responsibility for medical bills for this, that or the other. And even then, if I were the school head, I would hesitate. Suppose the guy with the heart transplant has a serious relapse or rejection. He is lying in the intensive care cardio unit, there is no insurance and his money has melted away. Who then will come under pressure to pay the bill? The school of course.
As in all things regarding contracts, do your homework, work out what you can and cannot accept and tell the truth!
"It also has a blurb on the bottom that lying (or omission of information) would be grounds for termination of the contract. It may also void the health insurance coverage."
While it is true that contract law is subservient to public policy (ie local labor law - unless the contract is more generous to the employee than public policy), the fact is that in many parts of the world a significant act of dishonesty or culpable omission of salient facts at the time of hire would always be grounds for dismissal. You may try to appeal the dismissal, but how feasible would that be in, say, Vietnam or Venezuala? Could you afford to pay a lawyer. Would the lawyer have the language skills to understand you? Would the courts? Could you afford to stay in the country while the case was settled?
There is a bigger question though, and that is a moral one - an area where Dave Psyguy also needs Learning Support. You have a right to expect a school administrator to tell you the truth when you are hired; there is a reciprocal obligation on you to tell the truth. My school has a very generous health policy. However, the one pre-condition it does exclude is HIV/AIDS. Don't you think it would be reckless for me to hire someone with HIV/AIDS knowing that there would be no private health insurance in case he fell sick or was injured?
Many schools have insurance providers who disallow any pre-conditions. If they accept their duty of care to their employees, then they really should not hire people who won't be covered unless there is an agreement in black and white that the employee accepts all responsibility for medical bills for this, that or the other. And even then, if I were the school head, I would hesitate. Suppose the guy with the heart transplant has a serious relapse or rejection. He is lying in the intensive care cardio unit, there is no insurance and his money has melted away. Who then will come under pressure to pay the bill? The school of course.
As in all things regarding contracts, do your homework, work out what you can and cannot accept and tell the truth!
Sigh
As usual Walter doesnt know what hes talking about and resorts to personal attacks in lieu of real argument and information. He is an admin and fear monger, who would have you believe that working for a school means you owe them anything and everything they ask for, or you will never work again after your fired.
To reitterate your medical history condition is NEVER a recruiting issue, even if you accept its an employment one. It simply has nothing to do with your ability to teach, and revealing the information can only hurt you.
Its useful that he abandons the legal argument in favor of a practical one, since he infers that there really isnt a legal argument, and instead relies on the practicality of enforceing your rights (which I actually agree with him on). Its very true that in a foreign country (from a practical position) as an international teacher you really do have very little recourse if your terminated (Ive written about this before). The MAJOR flaw in that argument though is that its true regardless of cause. If school can fire you for falsifying/omitting your medical history they can fire you for having an expensive/undesirable medical condition as well. if they dont want you for ANY reason, its not hard to get rid of you.
Schools and admins like Walter would love you to think that by hiring you, you owe them anything and everything, that your contract somehow entitles them to an autobiography and or a full confession of your life. While you owe a certain degree of truth to your school, you dont owe them the WHOLE truth. Somethings are just none of their business, and if they are going to breach the trust in the employment relationship, you dont owe them the truth of an honest answer. Respect and honesty is a two way exchange, and the school simply shouldnt be asking in the first place.
A school insurance policy and its limitations is important, and the school has a right to preclude preexisting conditions, but thats the limit of its involvement. It doesnt need to know the ACTUAL nature of those conditions, just to inform you and ensure your understanding that those conditions will not be covered. Anything else BEYOND that is a billing issue between you and your doctor. even if you have a preexisting condition your legal obligation is to inform the medical provider so that they can collect appropriate payment from the responsible ., which has nothing to do with your school employer. Its between you, the doctor, and the insurance.
A few other issues to discuss:
Understand that many countries have various levels of health protection laws. Once it goes into a file you loose control over it and may well find your medical records released without consent or being informed or even sold. You dont know where they are going to end up or what will happen with them.
As you get older you are more likely to develop more and more "preexisting conditions" these are going to get increasingly more expensive.
It would not be the first time a school learned of a preexisting condition only to find when you arrive that your condition has been added to the excluded list.
My rule is that its better to seek forgiveness then ask permission. Unless you have a plainly identifiable condition Id portend ignorance so that you can get treatment. What good is an insurance policy/coverage that basically doesnt provide treatment for your medical condition. Better the school pay for treatment then dyeing.
Lastly, and its such a loaded disingenuous example in the case of HIV, since MANY countries will deny a visa and refuse entry to someone with HIV/AIDS (this is true to a lessor extent for Tuberculoses as well).
To reitterate your medical history condition is NEVER a recruiting issue, even if you accept its an employment one. It simply has nothing to do with your ability to teach, and revealing the information can only hurt you.
Its useful that he abandons the legal argument in favor of a practical one, since he infers that there really isnt a legal argument, and instead relies on the practicality of enforceing your rights (which I actually agree with him on). Its very true that in a foreign country (from a practical position) as an international teacher you really do have very little recourse if your terminated (Ive written about this before). The MAJOR flaw in that argument though is that its true regardless of cause. If school can fire you for falsifying/omitting your medical history they can fire you for having an expensive/undesirable medical condition as well. if they dont want you for ANY reason, its not hard to get rid of you.
Schools and admins like Walter would love you to think that by hiring you, you owe them anything and everything, that your contract somehow entitles them to an autobiography and or a full confession of your life. While you owe a certain degree of truth to your school, you dont owe them the WHOLE truth. Somethings are just none of their business, and if they are going to breach the trust in the employment relationship, you dont owe them the truth of an honest answer. Respect and honesty is a two way exchange, and the school simply shouldnt be asking in the first place.
A school insurance policy and its limitations is important, and the school has a right to preclude preexisting conditions, but thats the limit of its involvement. It doesnt need to know the ACTUAL nature of those conditions, just to inform you and ensure your understanding that those conditions will not be covered. Anything else BEYOND that is a billing issue between you and your doctor. even if you have a preexisting condition your legal obligation is to inform the medical provider so that they can collect appropriate payment from the responsible ., which has nothing to do with your school employer. Its between you, the doctor, and the insurance.
A few other issues to discuss:
Understand that many countries have various levels of health protection laws. Once it goes into a file you loose control over it and may well find your medical records released without consent or being informed or even sold. You dont know where they are going to end up or what will happen with them.
As you get older you are more likely to develop more and more "preexisting conditions" these are going to get increasingly more expensive.
It would not be the first time a school learned of a preexisting condition only to find when you arrive that your condition has been added to the excluded list.
My rule is that its better to seek forgiveness then ask permission. Unless you have a plainly identifiable condition Id portend ignorance so that you can get treatment. What good is an insurance policy/coverage that basically doesnt provide treatment for your medical condition. Better the school pay for treatment then dyeing.
Lastly, and its such a loaded disingenuous example in the case of HIV, since MANY countries will deny a visa and refuse entry to someone with HIV/AIDS (this is true to a lessor extent for Tuberculoses as well).
Re: Comment
[quote="PsyGuy"]Many countries have similar health information and protection laws as well. Just because they "say" it could eb grounds for termination, doesnt actually mean they could legally terminate you.[/quote]
I'd be interested to know if any foreigner has been able to successfully fight an unfair dismissal claim in (let's think of some well known international school locations) Vietnam, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Bolivia, Kenya, Tanzania, Egypt, Brunei, or Kazakhstan (sp?)?
That is one of the reasons we have a site like ISR - as we teachers are often at the mercy of their administrators on contractual matters, it is important to inform other teachers of the feral administrators.
However, I'm with Walter on this one - tell the truth.
It will not only be very revealing about the school. But you also want to be sure that your health insurance coverage is not compromised.
I'd be interested to know if any foreigner has been able to successfully fight an unfair dismissal claim in (let's think of some well known international school locations) Vietnam, China, Indonesia, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Bolivia, Kenya, Tanzania, Egypt, Brunei, or Kazakhstan (sp?)?
That is one of the reasons we have a site like ISR - as we teachers are often at the mercy of their administrators on contractual matters, it is important to inform other teachers of the feral administrators.
However, I'm with Walter on this one - tell the truth.
It will not only be very revealing about the school. But you also want to be sure that your health insurance coverage is not compromised.
Humm
In those specific regions, I know of a couple in China, but the matters were "settled" rather then reaching a judicial decision. It was an issue of face actually, the school just didnt want the PR problem.
Ive known of several in other countries mainly in europe and japan, but even then its a negligible minority. Most teachers just take their plane ticket and whatever severance they get and leave. Some of them file complaints once they get back home, but aside from a letter to the labor ministry/union, they dont do anything else.
I know of only one suit that went all the way to a judicial decision in italy. They got 7 months salary, for the remainder of a two year contract, and legal fees. he never got a job in teaching again, and still lives in Rome. he works for an after school children's program for those with divorced parents. Little more then an assistant day care director.
Ive known of several in other countries mainly in europe and japan, but even then its a negligible minority. Most teachers just take their plane ticket and whatever severance they get and leave. Some of them file complaints once they get back home, but aside from a letter to the labor ministry/union, they dont do anything else.
I know of only one suit that went all the way to a judicial decision in italy. They got 7 months salary, for the remainder of a two year contract, and legal fees. he never got a job in teaching again, and still lives in Rome. he works for an after school children's program for those with divorced parents. Little more then an assistant day care director.
Interesting.
I guess that is why if I am confronted with a form asking for my medical history and it says that lies/omissions are grounds for termination, I'd think long and hard before saying anything other than the truth.
It seems that if you work in any school outside of the developed world (Europe, USA, Japan etc) then you would not have much chance of fighting the school if they carried through and terminated your contract.
As for what an insurance company would do if they noted a lie/omission on their paperwork ... good luck claiming for a recurrence of that condition if you left it off.
I guess that is why if I am confronted with a form asking for my medical history and it says that lies/omissions are grounds for termination, I'd think long and hard before saying anything other than the truth.
It seems that if you work in any school outside of the developed world (Europe, USA, Japan etc) then you would not have much chance of fighting the school if they carried through and terminated your contract.
As for what an insurance company would do if they noted a lie/omission on their paperwork ... good luck claiming for a recurrence of that condition if you left it off.
Semantics
Its a question of semantics. If they left the "lies and omissions are grounds for termination" off the form and you lied about it an were caught do you think the absence of that phrase would give you any legal protections? Even if it did would you be able to exercise them? The reality is if you cant defend yourself they can 'terminate' you for any reason.
Along that same logical path, are you prepared to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING your told or asked to do knowing you cant fight back? What if your principal demanded or suggested some kind of sexual service? Its the same problem what are you going to do, if you cant in all practicality do anything? What if they didnt pay you, or didnt pay you what was agreed? what if your told you will receive tuition waivers only to find out when you get there that there are 'other fees' not explicitly part of tuition, that add up to more then the actual waiver, and your expected to pay them? What if your disclose your medical conditions, and are told they are covered to get there and find out your specific condition is now not covered? Just pay for medication and treatment out of your pocket? Are you really going to sue them for anything?
Any country outside your home country of citizenship you would have that problem. Until you have Permanent Residency, and enough savings to support yourself, the reality is you cant afford to stay without a job, and the school more then likely controls or has a lot of influence over your visa. If they can terminate you for anything then warnings mean nothing.
Along that same logical path, are you prepared to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING your told or asked to do knowing you cant fight back? What if your principal demanded or suggested some kind of sexual service? Its the same problem what are you going to do, if you cant in all practicality do anything? What if they didnt pay you, or didnt pay you what was agreed? what if your told you will receive tuition waivers only to find out when you get there that there are 'other fees' not explicitly part of tuition, that add up to more then the actual waiver, and your expected to pay them? What if your disclose your medical conditions, and are told they are covered to get there and find out your specific condition is now not covered? Just pay for medication and treatment out of your pocket? Are you really going to sue them for anything?
Any country outside your home country of citizenship you would have that problem. Until you have Permanent Residency, and enough savings to support yourself, the reality is you cant afford to stay without a job, and the school more then likely controls or has a lot of influence over your visa. If they can terminate you for anything then warnings mean nothing.
Dave Psyguy
"Its useful that he abandons the legal argument in favor of a practical one, since he infers that there really isnt a legal argument"
Some people have a phobia about countries that end in "...stan". I have a phobia about people who don't understand the difference between "infer" and "imply".
Meanwhile if you read what I wrote, I don't abandon the legal argument at all. I make two very clear statements: contract law is trumped by public policy; lying in an application for a job is grounds for dismissal in many countries - including countries in Europe. In the meantime, when you go find a job at a recruitment fair, how many candidates dive into Google to research a particular country's Labor Law before signing the contract?
This has nothing to do with fear-mongering or an admin wanting to own you (more of Dave's sound and fury), and everything to do with a mutual obligation at recruitment fairs and elsewhere for candidates and recruiters to tell each other the truth about matters of importance.
Some people have a phobia about countries that end in "...stan". I have a phobia about people who don't understand the difference between "infer" and "imply".
Meanwhile if you read what I wrote, I don't abandon the legal argument at all. I make two very clear statements: contract law is trumped by public policy; lying in an application for a job is grounds for dismissal in many countries - including countries in Europe. In the meantime, when you go find a job at a recruitment fair, how many candidates dive into Google to research a particular country's Labor Law before signing the contract?
This has nothing to do with fear-mongering or an admin wanting to own you (more of Dave's sound and fury), and everything to do with a mutual obligation at recruitment fairs and elsewhere for candidates and recruiters to tell each other the truth about matters of importance.
Summary
And thats the issue/point medical history/background is not a matter of importance to the school or recruiter. Just because you want it to be doesnt make it so.
If an employer in any country required medical information they werent entitled to, the court would not enforce that requirement, and you could not lawfully terminate that employee, and if you did then you would be penalized for unlawful termination, and would be liable for damages. Just because you can ask, or even demand does not mean your actually entitled to compliance.
This is just more of an admin trying to maintain the fear that you owe your school everything and anything they ask and demand, or your career will forever be over.
If an employer in any country required medical information they werent entitled to, the court would not enforce that requirement, and you could not lawfully terminate that employee, and if you did then you would be penalized for unlawful termination, and would be liable for damages. Just because you can ask, or even demand does not mean your actually entitled to compliance.
This is just more of an admin trying to maintain the fear that you owe your school everything and anything they ask and demand, or your career will forever be over.