Two Questions: Ratio? And Career ladder?
Two Questions: Ratio? And Career ladder?
1) I have a question about the ratio of teachers to job openings. I do realize that that is a very broad question. Here are a couple of comparisons and some parameters. Comparison: In Chicago, IL (I will assume for argument it is more less the same for other metro areas in the US) elementary positions in the near suburbs can have a 250:1 ratio for teacher to job opening. If you go into the city, it drops to 50 or 100:1. Special education near suburbs would 20:1 in the city there are not enough teachers to fill the positions. Parameters: by all means go outside the parameters, maybe others would be interested in those numbers, but here are mine. Let’s talk “tier 2â€
Very situational depenendent
Application Ratio: This really depends on the schools location. Despite all the talk of elite schools on this board, there are a LOT of tier 2 schools. The problem for you is very few if any of them do special ed, so while there arent a lot of candidates, there also arent a lot of vacancies.
Stepping Down: Yeah you pretty much have to move up or stay where you are. The only time you can really step down is when your moving from say teaching to administration. Any head is going to have serious concerns why you took a step down, and more then likely they will make assumptions, without ever having the opportunity to explain why.
If your going to take a step down for a short term assignment or post, its better to just leave it off the resume.
Stepping Down: Yeah you pretty much have to move up or stay where you are. The only time you can really step down is when your moving from say teaching to administration. Any head is going to have serious concerns why you took a step down, and more then likely they will make assumptions, without ever having the opportunity to explain why.
If your going to take a step down for a short term assignment or post, its better to just leave it off the resume.
Tier 1,2, and 3
I kind of assumed about taking the step down. I do question it though because the money can still be good down at tier 3. Just so I know apples are apples I am going to list three schools and what tier I think they fall in. Psyguy or who ever let me know if you agree.
Tier 1: International School of Beijing
Tier 2: Saigon South International School
Tier 3: International School of Lusaka
Agree? If you no, give me your examples.
Tier 1: International School of Beijing
Tier 2: Saigon South International School
Tier 3: International School of Lusaka
Agree? If you no, give me your examples.
Ugh i hate this question, about the only thing anyones going to agree on is ISB
Id actually modify it as their being 4 categories: and Id include the elite category. The reason is that the top school in a region is usually substantially better then the other tier one schools in the area. You really need to compare schools within the same regions as well. There are just too many location/cultural specific factors
Elite: International school of Beijing (WAB would be tied)
Tier 1: Dulwich
Tier 2: Western International School of Shanghai
Tier 3: Harbin No. 9 High School
Id actually modify it as their being 4 categories: and Id include the elite category. The reason is that the top school in a region is usually substantially better then the other tier one schools in the area. You really need to compare schools within the same regions as well. There are just too many location/cultural specific factors
Elite: International school of Beijing (WAB would be tied)
Tier 1: Dulwich
Tier 2: Western International School of Shanghai
Tier 3: Harbin No. 9 High School
Last edited by PsyGuy on Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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wrldtrvlr123
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Re: Very situational depenendent
[quote="PsyGuy"]Application Ratio: This really depends on the schools location. Despite all the talk of elite schools on this board, there are a LOT of tier 2 schools. The problem for you is very few if any of them do special ed, so while there arent a lot of candidates, there also arent a lot of vacancies.
Stepping Down: Yeah you pretty much have to move up or stay where you are. The only time you can really step down is when your moving from say teaching to administration. Any head is going to have serious concerns why you took a step down, and more then likely they will make assumptions, without ever having the opportunity to explain why.
If your going to take a step down for a short term assignment or post, its better to just leave it off the resume.[/quote]
I know we always disagree/quibble on this point, BUT, virtually all schools (including the super elite) have some form of learning support staff and are almost always looking for learning support teachers. So, while you may be correct that they do not have what we would consider SPED, they certainly do hire SPED teachers. Let's get back to calling it SPED-Lite. :D
Stepping Down: Yeah you pretty much have to move up or stay where you are. The only time you can really step down is when your moving from say teaching to administration. Any head is going to have serious concerns why you took a step down, and more then likely they will make assumptions, without ever having the opportunity to explain why.
If your going to take a step down for a short term assignment or post, its better to just leave it off the resume.[/quote]
I know we always disagree/quibble on this point, BUT, virtually all schools (including the super elite) have some form of learning support staff and are almost always looking for learning support teachers. So, while you may be correct that they do not have what we would consider SPED, they certainly do hire SPED teachers. Let's get back to calling it SPED-Lite. :D
OK
Well as long as were talking SPED-lite. Yes many (a majority) of schools have learning support, and they do hire mainly special ed teachers to fill that position(s). My experience though is that learning support is a really small department if the school doesnt offer a full special ed program. Its usually either one learning support person school wide, or its one person for primary and one person for secondary. Its just not nearly as large a department as say humanities/social studies, or one of the core IB areas. That means there arent as many potential vacancies.
Here in Denmark we have a Learning Support VP, 2 full time learning support teachers (one for primary and one for secondary), an ESOL head teacher, 3 ESOL teachers, a behavior support teacher, and a cadre of about 6 regular subs that serve as inclusion teachers that shadow students.
In Italy we had one learning support teacher for the whole school. She was busy, but doing what i cant really say.
In China we didnt have any.
In Japan we didnt have any.
In Thailand we didnt have any.
In Singapore we didnt have any.
I will say though that SPED is growing, especially in regions such as Asia, that shunned those types of students.
Here in Denmark we have a Learning Support VP, 2 full time learning support teachers (one for primary and one for secondary), an ESOL head teacher, 3 ESOL teachers, a behavior support teacher, and a cadre of about 6 regular subs that serve as inclusion teachers that shadow students.
In Italy we had one learning support teacher for the whole school. She was busy, but doing what i cant really say.
In China we didnt have any.
In Japan we didnt have any.
In Thailand we didnt have any.
In Singapore we didnt have any.
I will say though that SPED is growing, especially in regions such as Asia, that shunned those types of students.
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wrldtrvlr123
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Re: OK
[quote="PsyGuy"]Well as long as were talking SPED-lite. Yes many (a majority) of schools have learning support, and they do hire mainly special ed teachers to fill that position(s). My experience though is that learning support is a really small department if the school doesnt offer a full special ed program. Its usually either one learning support person school wide, or its one person for primary and one person for secondary. Its just not nearly as large a department as say humanities/social studies, or one of the core IB areas. That means there arent as many potential vacancies.
Here in Denmark we have a Learning Support VP, 2 full time learning support teachers (one for primary and one for secondary), an ESOL head teacher, 3 ESOL teachers, a behavior support teacher, and a cadre of about 6 regular subs that serve as inclusion teachers that shadow students.
In Italy we had one learning support teacher for the whole school. She was busy, but doing what i cant really say.
In China we didnt have any.
In Japan we didnt have any.
In Thailand we didnt have any.
In Singapore we didnt have any.
I will say though that SPED is growing, especially in regions such as Asia, that shunned those types of students.[/quote]
Yes, but what kinds of schools were you teaching at in China, Japan and Singapore?
WAB has a dept. of at least 13 in learning support. ISB is close to that. BCIS has 2 in ES, 1 in MS and 1 and HS (plus counselors at each level).
ASIJ has 2 to3 in ES and at least 1 per MS, HS (plus counselors).
Check out the top schools in BKK/Singapore and they will have at least similar amounts of LS staff.
Here in Denmark we have a Learning Support VP, 2 full time learning support teachers (one for primary and one for secondary), an ESOL head teacher, 3 ESOL teachers, a behavior support teacher, and a cadre of about 6 regular subs that serve as inclusion teachers that shadow students.
In Italy we had one learning support teacher for the whole school. She was busy, but doing what i cant really say.
In China we didnt have any.
In Japan we didnt have any.
In Thailand we didnt have any.
In Singapore we didnt have any.
I will say though that SPED is growing, especially in regions such as Asia, that shunned those types of students.[/quote]
Yes, but what kinds of schools were you teaching at in China, Japan and Singapore?
WAB has a dept. of at least 13 in learning support. ISB is close to that. BCIS has 2 in ES, 1 in MS and 1 and HS (plus counselors at each level).
ASIJ has 2 to3 in ES and at least 1 per MS, HS (plus counselors).
Check out the top schools in BKK/Singapore and they will have at least similar amounts of LS staff.
OK
Well I agree with your examples, but those are all elite schools or top 1st tier schools. They arent representative of the majority of other schools. Japan and China were first tier schools. Italy and Thailand were second tier schools. Singapore was somewhere between 1st and 2nd tier.
While WAB's and ISB's department are impressive, none of the other ones are very large when your not counting counselors. By your count AISJ and BCIS have only 4. For elite schools, thats hardly a big department, especially compared to the sizes of their general education core departments.
Which top schools in Singapore and Thailand. I couldnt find any Learning Support Information at OFS in Singapore, and while ISB in Thailand does have a learning Support Department and counselors though I couldnt find numbers, id agree that its pretty well run and staffed department.
I hate to make the point again, these are "THE" elite schools. Go to a typical tier 1 school and you find 1 or 2 LS teachers. Go to a tier 2 school and you dont find any.
Ill make it easy on search right now in ALL of Asia there are 32 vacancies for SPED/Learning Support and 3 more for Resource Teacher. Thats a total of 35 vacancies. There are a total of 1178 teaching vacancies in Asia (I did not include admin and counselor positions). Thats 3% (actually 2.971). That negligible compared to the 246 english vacancies (21%). I gave up on science since thats 5 searches (one each for biology, chemistry, physics, general science, and environmental systems) and that was before tackling the sheer number of primary (elementary) positions.
I'm sorry but the numbers just dont support a large SPED community.
While WAB's and ISB's department are impressive, none of the other ones are very large when your not counting counselors. By your count AISJ and BCIS have only 4. For elite schools, thats hardly a big department, especially compared to the sizes of their general education core departments.
Which top schools in Singapore and Thailand. I couldnt find any Learning Support Information at OFS in Singapore, and while ISB in Thailand does have a learning Support Department and counselors though I couldnt find numbers, id agree that its pretty well run and staffed department.
I hate to make the point again, these are "THE" elite schools. Go to a typical tier 1 school and you find 1 or 2 LS teachers. Go to a tier 2 school and you dont find any.
Ill make it easy on search right now in ALL of Asia there are 32 vacancies for SPED/Learning Support and 3 more for Resource Teacher. Thats a total of 35 vacancies. There are a total of 1178 teaching vacancies in Asia (I did not include admin and counselor positions). Thats 3% (actually 2.971). That negligible compared to the 246 english vacancies (21%). I gave up on science since thats 5 searches (one each for biology, chemistry, physics, general science, and environmental systems) and that was before tackling the sheer number of primary (elementary) positions.
I'm sorry but the numbers just dont support a large SPED community.
Getting back to the original question, while I don't have tons of experience in moving schools I personally don't think you should worry about the make believe tier position of a school if its a job you really want to do, a place you really want to move to or an experience you want to have. Life is too short to be making plans based on an imaginary Tier system that in no way guarantees your happiness or job satisfaction. I moved from a supposedly Tier 3 school to a supposedly Tier 1 school and while the monetary benefits are much better I wouldn't say I am happier and in fact I often wish I hadn't moved. My advice is, if you want the job take it and don't worry about what others might think in a couple of years. If you are a good teacher and do a good job it won't matter where you teach.
Typical
Typical Daisy shes right because she says so, and because she has a friend blah, blah.
The DOS has no influence on schools except at only a handful of DOS assisted schools. Which once again only fall into the category of elite schools (which her example at SAS is). SAS is small, I doubt they have that many SPED teachers.
Only a handful of elite schools in Asia have special ed departments.
SPED teachers internationally are not in anymore demand then teachers overall. You always hear (usually from Search associates) that so and so subject/field is in high demand, but thats like saying everyones special, it really means no ones special.
On the other post, if your interested in climbing the ladder thats one thing. If your interested in being "happy" then it doesnt matter what tier of school your in. Find a school thats a good match with you and thats whats going to matter. I was in a top tier school in Japan, and I didnt like it very much. Loved Japan, but got burned out by the work expectations and workload. Im not excited to do that again (but again i miss Japan).
The more you make at a school the more your going to work for every dollar....
The DOS has no influence on schools except at only a handful of DOS assisted schools. Which once again only fall into the category of elite schools (which her example at SAS is). SAS is small, I doubt they have that many SPED teachers.
Only a handful of elite schools in Asia have special ed departments.
SPED teachers internationally are not in anymore demand then teachers overall. You always hear (usually from Search associates) that so and so subject/field is in high demand, but thats like saying everyones special, it really means no ones special.
On the other post, if your interested in climbing the ladder thats one thing. If your interested in being "happy" then it doesnt matter what tier of school your in. Find a school thats a good match with you and thats whats going to matter. I was in a top tier school in Japan, and I didnt like it very much. Loved Japan, but got burned out by the work expectations and workload. Im not excited to do that again (but again i miss Japan).
The more you make at a school the more your going to work for every dollar....
Growing Field
Thank you for the replies, numbers and perspectives. My current school has gone from a SPED staff of one to a SPED staff of five in three years. I think this is the trend internationally.
I didn't hear to much chatter about the counseling situation abroad. It is my understanding that it is much the same. Not an overwhelming number of positions, but not an overwhelming number of counselors to fill them either.
Overhere, I like that response. I go back and forth between believing in the tier system and thinking it make believe. In the end I imagine there are good schools and bad schools across all the alleged tiers.
Much Thanks,
Randy
I didn't hear to much chatter about the counseling situation abroad. It is my understanding that it is much the same. Not an overwhelming number of positions, but not an overwhelming number of counselors to fill them either.
Overhere, I like that response. I go back and forth between believing in the tier system and thinking it make believe. In the end I imagine there are good schools and bad schools across all the alleged tiers.
Much Thanks,
Randy
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Typical
[quote="PsyGuy"]Typical Daisy shes right because she says so, and because she has a friend blah, blah.
The DOS has no influence on schools except at only a handful of DOS assisted schools. Which once again only fall into the category of elite schools (which her example at SAS is). SAS is small, I doubt they have that many SPED teachers.
Only a handful of elite schools in Asia have special ed departments.
SPED teachers internationally are not in anymore demand then teachers overall. You always hear (usually from Search associates) that so and so subject/field is in high demand, but thats like saying everyones special, it really means no ones special.
On the other post, if your interested in climbing the ladder thats one thing. If your interested in being "happy" then it doesnt matter what tier of school your in. Find a school thats a good match with you and thats whats going to matter. I was in a top tier school in Japan, and I didnt like it very much. Loved Japan, but got burned out by the work expectations and workload. Im not excited to do that again (but again i miss Japan).
The more you make at a school the more your going to work for every dollar....[/quote]
Never really understood why you seem to have this blindspot about SPED-lite. Virtually every school in Beijing has a learning support department, even if that is just one person (although most have at least one person at each level (ES, MS, HS).
The DOS has no influence on schools except at only a handful of DOS assisted schools. Which once again only fall into the category of elite schools (which her example at SAS is). SAS is small, I doubt they have that many SPED teachers.
Only a handful of elite schools in Asia have special ed departments.
SPED teachers internationally are not in anymore demand then teachers overall. You always hear (usually from Search associates) that so and so subject/field is in high demand, but thats like saying everyones special, it really means no ones special.
On the other post, if your interested in climbing the ladder thats one thing. If your interested in being "happy" then it doesnt matter what tier of school your in. Find a school thats a good match with you and thats whats going to matter. I was in a top tier school in Japan, and I didnt like it very much. Loved Japan, but got burned out by the work expectations and workload. Im not excited to do that again (but again i miss Japan).
The more you make at a school the more your going to work for every dollar....[/quote]
Never really understood why you seem to have this blindspot about SPED-lite. Virtually every school in Beijing has a learning support department, even if that is just one person (although most have at least one person at each level (ES, MS, HS).
Humm
Well i dont have a blind spot, i dont think (maybe i do). The OP is from a public school system in Chicago, and I just think that from that perspective Learning Resource isnt going to be anything remotely familiar to Special Ed there.
I like using Special Ed Lite, but outside of you, me and few other people on this and other forums, what does that mean, since the uninitiated arent, or werent privy to those earlier conversations???
When I first started as a teacher I was a special populations teacher which meant i taught mild needs special ed students who were also ESL students. That was the most stressful job (and in some ways the most rewarding) job I have ever had (well my first job was a San Diego Parks ocean lifeguard, and once did a rescue unknowingly of a shark attack victim, only to discover when id contacted the victim that the shark was still in the area.) Anyway that school and district had decided that ESL trumped Special Ed, so despite being a mild (and I mean mild ED, and LD) program i found myself with students that were clearly (and documented) moderate needs students. That experience was nothing like any Special Ed, Learning Support, Resource Service, department I have ever seen internationally.
I like using Special Ed Lite, but outside of you, me and few other people on this and other forums, what does that mean, since the uninitiated arent, or werent privy to those earlier conversations???
When I first started as a teacher I was a special populations teacher which meant i taught mild needs special ed students who were also ESL students. That was the most stressful job (and in some ways the most rewarding) job I have ever had (well my first job was a San Diego Parks ocean lifeguard, and once did a rescue unknowingly of a shark attack victim, only to discover when id contacted the victim that the shark was still in the area.) Anyway that school and district had decided that ESL trumped Special Ed, so despite being a mild (and I mean mild ED, and LD) program i found myself with students that were clearly (and documented) moderate needs students. That experience was nothing like any Special Ed, Learning Support, Resource Service, department I have ever seen internationally.
I think Learning Support is a growth area in all international schools.
When I went to my 1st Search Associates information seminar in 1999, the associate basically said that most international schools have no demand for Learning Support teachers, as they rarely accept special needs kids. He told one of the attendees there was only a low % chance she'd find a job.
Since then, a lot has changed. For a start, hundreds of new international schools have entered the market (esp. in the Middle East and Asia). They are often for profit and are more open with their admissions policies.
I also think attitudes among administrators have changed, resulting in schools being more open to admitted students with special needs and therefore hiring specialists to cater for them. My concern is those schools that admit the students, but do not hire the teachers to meet their needs (or those of the teachers working with those students).
Naturally, there will still be far more vacancies for English or Elementary teachers on the Search database. However, I dare say there are far more candidates for those teaching areas as well.
When I went to my 1st Search Associates information seminar in 1999, the associate basically said that most international schools have no demand for Learning Support teachers, as they rarely accept special needs kids. He told one of the attendees there was only a low % chance she'd find a job.
Since then, a lot has changed. For a start, hundreds of new international schools have entered the market (esp. in the Middle East and Asia). They are often for profit and are more open with their admissions policies.
I also think attitudes among administrators have changed, resulting in schools being more open to admitted students with special needs and therefore hiring specialists to cater for them. My concern is those schools that admit the students, but do not hire the teachers to meet their needs (or those of the teachers working with those students).
Naturally, there will still be far more vacancies for English or Elementary teachers on the Search database. However, I dare say there are far more candidates for those teaching areas as well.