This is to ADMIN or anyone else who has found an answer before.
It seems that some type of discussion would be nice on the pay side. It is great to be able to read reviews, but it would be nicer to be able to also discuss them.
It seems that we are constrained on this side because we can't really discuss the payside without crossing a line.
This forum is great for general discussion, but i'd really like to be able to discuss the nitty gritty and details of reviews.
The TES also limits discussion about individual schools.
Anyway, i enjoy the site, i'd just like to see it go to the next level.
discussion on reviews
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willinphil
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:56 am
- Location: Philippines
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I think there are a couple of reasons. As much as most people are against the "evil for profit schools", this site is for profit. You get that profit by driving traffic to your site. ISR does that with anonymous, unverifiable, and sometimes outlandish claims. Some are true, some are not - you gotta pay to see them!
Secondly, ISR is much more interested in the sensational side than they are about the truth. The sensational side sells subscriptions - the boring truth does not. Who knows what is true, but if people talk about it, the truth may come out. This does not sell subscriptions. I know people talk about the wild, yet untrue reviews for our school. Word goes around like the flu and we all huddle around the computer and laugh, argue, and try to figure out who wrote the review. Finding out that a disgruntled employee wrote a review gets old really quick, but you have to pay to learn more. While most people at my school want to read the outlandish reviews, hardly anyone trusts them - even fewer want to pay to see them.
The disturbing part is how the admin takes comments out of context and starts a blog, or writes headlines without asking for permissions.
Secondly, ISR is much more interested in the sensational side than they are about the truth. The sensational side sells subscriptions - the boring truth does not. Who knows what is true, but if people talk about it, the truth may come out. This does not sell subscriptions. I know people talk about the wild, yet untrue reviews for our school. Word goes around like the flu and we all huddle around the computer and laugh, argue, and try to figure out who wrote the review. Finding out that a disgruntled employee wrote a review gets old really quick, but you have to pay to learn more. While most people at my school want to read the outlandish reviews, hardly anyone trusts them - even fewer want to pay to see them.
The disturbing part is how the admin takes comments out of context and starts a blog, or writes headlines without asking for permissions.
[quote="ichiro"] I recall making a comment here on the forum a couple years ago to the effect that I hope no aspiring overseas teacher would peruse this forum and the for-profit side of ISR and then decide not to make the leap.[/quote]
When I first began investigating teaching overseas, I spent hours reading, in horror, the reviews on this site. I questioned whether this was a step I should take. After a few days I came back and re-read the reviews with all my critical thinking skills, and came to the conclusion that many reviewers are probably misfits who would not be satisfied anywhere. One complaint really illustrated this: The reviewer was unhappy that the principal had given him/her a cardboard box to use as a wastebasket. So many of the complaints were minor ones that any professional would just suck up and deal with. I'm sure there are some legitimate complaints against some schools, but one must really read between the lines of the reviews to discern real problems from whining.
I am very happy in my first posting and have re-upped for a third year. The school I'm at has not been reviewed although it's been in operation for several generations. That probably says a lot about it, given the overall negative tenor of the reviews.
When I first began investigating teaching overseas, I spent hours reading, in horror, the reviews on this site. I questioned whether this was a step I should take. After a few days I came back and re-read the reviews with all my critical thinking skills, and came to the conclusion that many reviewers are probably misfits who would not be satisfied anywhere. One complaint really illustrated this: The reviewer was unhappy that the principal had given him/her a cardboard box to use as a wastebasket. So many of the complaints were minor ones that any professional would just suck up and deal with. I'm sure there are some legitimate complaints against some schools, but one must really read between the lines of the reviews to discern real problems from whining.
I am very happy in my first posting and have re-upped for a third year. The school I'm at has not been reviewed although it's been in operation for several generations. That probably says a lot about it, given the overall negative tenor of the reviews.
Hey - Lets bite the hand that feeds us.
I do find it interesting you have the audacity to use the best means of sharing information we have to criticize the very group that makes this possible. If you want to continue to blow you horn and puff up your feathers, why not do it someplace else? As for me, I suffered badly at a school and could have avoided the entire ordeal had I known about this site before accepting the position. I can't recommend ISR highly enough to new teachers. As for the site charging money....why not teach next year for no salary?
"why not teach for no money?"
I do not want to imply, nor do I assume that everyone has a great time teaching overseas. I also do not automatically assume that everyone must have a bad time because I had a bad time.
Why don't I teach for free? Well if you knew me, you'd realize that money is not a driving factor for me. Here is the huge difference though, I am working for my money. ISR merely publishes what others have thought about, and later typed up. ISR just runs the website. While I appreciate the forum section, the paid section is a result of other people's work. Every time someone types-up a review, ISR benefits. The better question might be, "Would you work for free and let someone else claim the credit and money?"
It is interesting that you said that you wish you could have seen the reviews before you went to work for your school. Almost every school has multiple negative reviews - no one would work anywhere if most of the reviews were true. I'm sorry, but I don't see it as that bad. Bad school here and there - sure. All bad - something's wrong with the system. I have even read reviews that I know first hand are completely false and not even close to being accurate. I have been overseas for a while now, but I am totally unable to separate the false/untrue/revenge reviews from the realistic/fair reviews (unless I have first hand knowledge). How is that helpful?
I do not want to imply, nor do I assume that everyone has a great time teaching overseas. I also do not automatically assume that everyone must have a bad time because I had a bad time.
Why don't I teach for free? Well if you knew me, you'd realize that money is not a driving factor for me. Here is the huge difference though, I am working for my money. ISR merely publishes what others have thought about, and later typed up. ISR just runs the website. While I appreciate the forum section, the paid section is a result of other people's work. Every time someone types-up a review, ISR benefits. The better question might be, "Would you work for free and let someone else claim the credit and money?"
It is interesting that you said that you wish you could have seen the reviews before you went to work for your school. Almost every school has multiple negative reviews - no one would work anywhere if most of the reviews were true. I'm sorry, but I don't see it as that bad. Bad school here and there - sure. All bad - something's wrong with the system. I have even read reviews that I know first hand are completely false and not even close to being accurate. I have been overseas for a while now, but I am totally unable to separate the false/untrue/revenge reviews from the realistic/fair reviews (unless I have first hand knowledge). How is that helpful?
Re: Hey - Lets bite the hand that feeds us.
deleted
Last edited by ichiro on Sat May 05, 2012 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reviews on the ISR
I regularly post things on the [i]Times Educational Supplement [/i]website for teaching overseas. It is annoying to see posts deleted because they have mentioned specific schools or particular individuals. Some teachers try to get round this by referring to a school by a nickname or some other cryptic clue, but still threads get deleted.
I am glad that the ISR does give us the opportunity to "name and shame" schools that really are pretty awful, but at the same time it seems to me that too many reviews a unbalanced and negative. If the school really was as awful as you claim, then why didn't you relize that before you went there? Surely we have a responsibility to try to be fair and to write banced reviews, giving accurate information (the bad and the good) and allowing the reader to make up his or her own mind.
I am glad that the ISR does give us the opportunity to "name and shame" schools that really are pretty awful, but at the same time it seems to me that too many reviews a unbalanced and negative. If the school really was as awful as you claim, then why didn't you relize that before you went there? Surely we have a responsibility to try to be fair and to write banced reviews, giving accurate information (the bad and the good) and allowing the reader to make up his or her own mind.
I definitely second (third) what has been said about TES. It gets a lot more traffic, though, which... well, it has its own issues and it is ridiculous the circumlocution necessary there, it's very difficult to use the search function on a school when it has only been described as a rebus. And you do definitely get the feeling there that the teachers are only permitted to say what will keep the paying advertisers (the schools, in the classifieds) happy. The teachers' opinions there are truly of no value other than to tell the advertisers how much traffic there is for them.
At the same time it is really disconcerting to see a thread in this forum just lifted and made into a blog out of the blue. I'm not sure the benefit of that, it kind of splits the conversation, and the original posters posted here, to the thread. I don't know the technical details, but it violates the spirit of copyright, where the initial person to put it into physical form owns where and how it is used, including electronic publishing. Maybe giving those rights away was part of the "user" agreement to this forum, maybe from here on out it will be, but that does stick in my craw a little.
Before someone jumps in and tells me that because some of us are in another country, where ever that might be, that there is no copyright, the address listed on the ISR blog/email is in Florida. And treating others as one would want to be treated should be valid anywhere, anyways.
specialed, it is interesting to hear you have first hand experience of untrue reviews. Of course you can see that some of the reviewers were never going to be happy anywhere and I think we've all worked with people whose advice we wouldn't trust in person, but I've wondered if people have posted negative things to cut down competition for a good school. Maybe I'm heading into conspiracy territory there, but I also have read things on the pay side that have made me say "huh? did this person even work there?"
At the same time it is really disconcerting to see a thread in this forum just lifted and made into a blog out of the blue. I'm not sure the benefit of that, it kind of splits the conversation, and the original posters posted here, to the thread. I don't know the technical details, but it violates the spirit of copyright, where the initial person to put it into physical form owns where and how it is used, including electronic publishing. Maybe giving those rights away was part of the "user" agreement to this forum, maybe from here on out it will be, but that does stick in my craw a little.
Before someone jumps in and tells me that because some of us are in another country, where ever that might be, that there is no copyright, the address listed on the ISR blog/email is in Florida. And treating others as one would want to be treated should be valid anywhere, anyways.
specialed, it is interesting to hear you have first hand experience of untrue reviews. Of course you can see that some of the reviewers were never going to be happy anywhere and I think we've all worked with people whose advice we wouldn't trust in person, but I've wondered if people have posted negative things to cut down competition for a good school. Maybe I'm heading into conspiracy territory there, but I also have read things on the pay side that have made me say "huh? did this person even work there?"
We knew who the person was, and yes, some of the negative reviews were totally made up. I am not saying all negative reviews are made up. I'm saying that I can't tell unless I have first hand knowledge. I also wonder if some of the reviews are actually real, or just someone writing for kicks.
Some people truly love to be miserable - others should feel the same of course. I would like to try and be happy. Some days are better than others of course! I'm trying not to ruffle my feathers or toot my horn (I was kicked out of music as a kid, so I don't care to toot as I don't know/understand musical notes).
As to conspiracies, I think it is simpler. Some people are like dark rain clouds that rain wherever they go and they just can't help it. I'm not sure it is a conscious decision, but it is the way some people live. People want others to feel like they do, and this is kind of sad in a way. Life is too short to look at the glass as half-full (or dirty, wrong, etc.).
I agree about comments being lifted and used out of context - with no citing. It's taking someone else's work and calling it your own - plus making money from it (especially on the pay side). Maybe that is stealing someone's horn and tooting it?
Some people truly love to be miserable - others should feel the same of course. I would like to try and be happy. Some days are better than others of course! I'm trying not to ruffle my feathers or toot my horn (I was kicked out of music as a kid, so I don't care to toot as I don't know/understand musical notes).
As to conspiracies, I think it is simpler. Some people are like dark rain clouds that rain wherever they go and they just can't help it. I'm not sure it is a conscious decision, but it is the way some people live. People want others to feel like they do, and this is kind of sad in a way. Life is too short to look at the glass as half-full (or dirty, wrong, etc.).
I agree about comments being lifted and used out of context - with no citing. It's taking someone else's work and calling it your own - plus making money from it (especially on the pay side). Maybe that is stealing someone's horn and tooting it?
my friend was happy to have her forum post made into a blog
The blog about moving overseas for the first time was first posted to the forum by one of our teachers. This person is very pleased that their forum post was chosen to be on the blog, thus attracting more response from teachers. They took it all as a compliment and not that someone stole their work. How could the people that host the forum be accused of stealing work off their own site and using it someplace else? I did notice that it says at the top of the blog that the topic was taken from the forum. So, no secret, undercover stuff there.
I think you should keep in mind that TES restricts everything we say but ISR allows us to share information, especially in the pay section of the site. I'm sure ISR has legal issues to deal with on an ongoing scale and maybe they need the money to afford legal stuff. Just a thought.
I think you should keep in mind that TES restricts everything we say but ISR allows us to share information, especially in the pay section of the site. I'm sure ISR has legal issues to deal with on an ongoing scale and maybe they need the money to afford legal stuff. Just a thought.
Pleased after the fact is different than being asked beforehand. Should an author be ok with a publisher who says: "But I got you all this greater audience! Aren't you flattered? Check? No, there's no check, did you expect a check when you wrote it the first time? You love to do this, right?" (I especially love that argument, that those who enjoy their work don't deserve to be paid for it. Sorry, I digress.) I am sure there Are people who would be happy in that circumstance, but that doesn't make it obligatory that everyone should feel that way. Especially not if someone else profits in some manner, however indirect it may or may not be.
It was not only one instance of a person's words being used out of context and elsewhere. There was more than one author and more than one blog topic.
Hosting a website does not give moral authority over a created work. As I alluded above, user agreements these days feel perfectly fine asking to enslave the user's grandmother, but that is not equal to What Is Right. Sorry. It doesn't. Would you like to see something you've posted on Facebook to a friend appear in an advertisement of your_least_favorite_product_here? So what if it's still on the Facebook site. It would be out of context and not where you intended.
The fact that TES has its own special way of sucking at times does not change the moral authority over one's own words and where and how they are used.
And the idea that ISR would be entitled to lift anyone's words here because they a.) have legal bills b.) feed poor children in X-landia or c.) they are "good people", I'm sorry. It doesn't work.
Michelle, I am glad that we have a place to name and shame, and I'm sorry that you had a bad time at a school, but there aren't excuses for using someone else's words without prior permission, in a completely different context, just because someone wanted to.
It was not only one instance of a person's words being used out of context and elsewhere. There was more than one author and more than one blog topic.
Hosting a website does not give moral authority over a created work. As I alluded above, user agreements these days feel perfectly fine asking to enslave the user's grandmother, but that is not equal to What Is Right. Sorry. It doesn't. Would you like to see something you've posted on Facebook to a friend appear in an advertisement of your_least_favorite_product_here? So what if it's still on the Facebook site. It would be out of context and not where you intended.
The fact that TES has its own special way of sucking at times does not change the moral authority over one's own words and where and how they are used.
And the idea that ISR would be entitled to lift anyone's words here because they a.) have legal bills b.) feed poor children in X-landia or c.) they are "good people", I'm sorry. It doesn't work.
Michelle, I am glad that we have a place to name and shame, and I'm sorry that you had a bad time at a school, but there aren't excuses for using someone else's words without prior permission, in a completely different context, just because someone wanted to.
You know, the copyright-friendly way to have driven more traffic to the ideas would have been with a link to the thread where it could be originally found (and added on to). If there are reasons people are more willing to post on the "blog" versus the forum, they need to be looked at.
Incidentally, the blog on best and worst packages is absolutely unreadable by now and a conclusive example of why we no longer use the scroll as opposed to the codex. As a forum thread, at least there would be pages to flip through. By now, it is too long to read in one sitting and there is no easy way of picking up where you left off.
Incidentally, the blog on best and worst packages is absolutely unreadable by now and a conclusive example of why we no longer use the scroll as opposed to the codex. As a forum thread, at least there would be pages to flip through. By now, it is too long to read in one sitting and there is no easy way of picking up where you left off.