Negotiating Salary- Take it or leave it?
I think this thread is played out
RedRider- you are putting words in my mouth and trying to make me look bad. I never implied anything that you are saying. Please read my post again.
" If I may boil it down; it has always bothered me (and gotten me in trouble with union officials) that a Physical Education instructor gets paid as much as me. Coming to school in shorts and watching kids toss a ball around is equal to what I do??!!"
"I will stand my ground on PE. You can doll up the language all you want- they play sports with kids. You could hire anyone you want, and the kids would learn (self-directed) and get as much out of it if you had a PhD., or the Pope, or an 18 year-old. "
"RedRider- you are putting words in my mouth and trying to make me look bad." You didn't need any help with that.
And if no one points it out to you that the above is offensive, you will have problems at an international school. The culture is significantly different there than in the US and a good school will have a very tight knit and mutually supportive community. Letting on in any way that you think another content area is not "equal" to what you do will not go over well. It's not that it's impolitic with a union. It's disrespectful to work that you haven't put any thought into why it might be valuable.
"I will stand my ground on PE. You can doll up the language all you want- they play sports with kids. You could hire anyone you want, and the kids would learn (self-directed) and get as much out of it if you had a PhD., or the Pope, or an 18 year-old. "
"RedRider- you are putting words in my mouth and trying to make me look bad." You didn't need any help with that.
And if no one points it out to you that the above is offensive, you will have problems at an international school. The culture is significantly different there than in the US and a good school will have a very tight knit and mutually supportive community. Letting on in any way that you think another content area is not "equal" to what you do will not go over well. It's not that it's impolitic with a union. It's disrespectful to work that you haven't put any thought into why it might be valuable.
How very wonderful!
Now I see why this site is ghost town. Smug, self-important commenters seem to smother any discourse.
Let me point out your mistake. I did criticize the pay scale for PE and their contributions to the educational mission of a school.
You, not me, extended my comments to denigrating other subject areas, and assuming that I put my subject area above other. I never suggested either of those ideas, and I deny them.
Now you both seem to making judgments about the 'type' of teacher I am and what my future overseas will be. Aren't you the omniscient rulers of all you survey?! Well done.
A better more positive contribution to this website would be to put up a defense of PE and leave your attacks on my personality and my dismal future out of it.
You may have good arguments and could persuade me otherwise, but spending a great deal of effort to be offended ( I don't find people that disagree with me offensive. Why do you?) doesn't address any goal of this forum.
Because of responses like yours, I understand why nobody says anything of consequence on this site and nobody is willing to name their school. Your writings are belligerent, and self-rightous, but you are probably nice people. I judge the act, not the actor.
Good Luck and enjoy your summer!
Let me point out your mistake. I did criticize the pay scale for PE and their contributions to the educational mission of a school.
You, not me, extended my comments to denigrating other subject areas, and assuming that I put my subject area above other. I never suggested either of those ideas, and I deny them.
Now you both seem to making judgments about the 'type' of teacher I am and what my future overseas will be. Aren't you the omniscient rulers of all you survey?! Well done.
A better more positive contribution to this website would be to put up a defense of PE and leave your attacks on my personality and my dismal future out of it.
You may have good arguments and could persuade me otherwise, but spending a great deal of effort to be offended ( I don't find people that disagree with me offensive. Why do you?) doesn't address any goal of this forum.
Because of responses like yours, I understand why nobody says anything of consequence on this site and nobody is willing to name their school. Your writings are belligerent, and self-rightous, but you are probably nice people. I judge the act, not the actor.
Good Luck and enjoy your summer!
I think you misinterpret why people don't want to reply. It seems like you just want to argue and that you want to throw responses out there to see the response you get.
This started out with a really good discussion about how much you can negotiate. It turned into a diatribe about the merits of being a PE teacher.
As I grow older (too fast I might add) my own perceived self-worth decreases. I once thought I was the best and smartest. Now I realize that I can be pretty good, but so can a lot of other people. Other people have value. Many have even more value than me! Maybe I'm not as smart and worth as much as I thought...
This started out with a really good discussion about how much you can negotiate. It turned into a diatribe about the merits of being a PE teacher.
As I grow older (too fast I might add) my own perceived self-worth decreases. I once thought I was the best and smartest. Now I realize that I can be pretty good, but so can a lot of other people. Other people have value. Many have even more value than me! Maybe I'm not as smart and worth as much as I thought...
Re: How very wonderful!
[quote="derPhysik"]You can doll up the language all you want- they play sports with kids. You could hire anyone you want, and the kids would learn (self-directed) and get as much out of it if you had a PhD., or the Pope, or an 18 year-old. [/quote]
I agree sometimes this place can get personal and dysfunctional. The debate on pay for performance in education is certainly a valid one, and one worth debating. The reality of overseas education and it's take it or leave it attitude can be depressing.
However when you make statements that seem to denigrate a group of people and compare their efforts and professionalism to an 18 year old, that to is personal and non-productive. If you'd wanted a civil and mature debate, than make your point without the ridiculous statements.
Not being a PE teacher I have worked with those that earned every penny and then some.
I agree sometimes this place can get personal and dysfunctional. The debate on pay for performance in education is certainly a valid one, and one worth debating. The reality of overseas education and it's take it or leave it attitude can be depressing.
However when you make statements that seem to denigrate a group of people and compare their efforts and professionalism to an 18 year old, that to is personal and non-productive. If you'd wanted a civil and mature debate, than make your point without the ridiculous statements.
Not being a PE teacher I have worked with those that earned every penny and then some.
ichiro, I agree with you there, about the change at the PE part.
specialed, I especially agree with the part about recognizing that one is among many who are good also, as time goes by. The first round of layoffs that I was present for really changed my perception. Not because I was directly involved (I had moved on) but to see absolutely EXCELLENT teachers without work and mediocre to bad kept for arbitrary wording on their teaching credential woke me up to the fact that GOOD teachers aren't always employed, excellent workers aren't always employed. Life is not fair and being great is just not enough. The lesson I took away was that it's part random luck that you have no control over (and should be grateful for) and part strong relationships with others that you have no way of knowing how it will bail you out in the future. Besides being better to work in a respectful and cooperative environment, push IS going to come to shove sometime and you WILL need help.
derPhysik, I'm bored, simply and without smugness, just that we're all busy. I extrapolated content area because it's not clear to me why and where you draw the line between content areas and I haven't heard a well-supported argument regarding that yet. (That's rhetorical. You don't HAVE to send more defensive stuff, I'm much more interested in anyone who has an opposing view regarding performance pay that is well supported, ie, a plan that would be evidently equitable and fair to all. I'm not convinced it is possible, but interested in being proven wrong, or at least provoked to think about it differently.)
JISAlum, I agree with you too, that the conversation was really interesting when it was with reasoned, supported arguments regarding pay and negotiation and pay for performance. Do you think we can get back to that WITHOUT someone jumping in and saying "but not this area! This area, no!"? Or was that inevitable?
specialed, I especially agree with the part about recognizing that one is among many who are good also, as time goes by. The first round of layoffs that I was present for really changed my perception. Not because I was directly involved (I had moved on) but to see absolutely EXCELLENT teachers without work and mediocre to bad kept for arbitrary wording on their teaching credential woke me up to the fact that GOOD teachers aren't always employed, excellent workers aren't always employed. Life is not fair and being great is just not enough. The lesson I took away was that it's part random luck that you have no control over (and should be grateful for) and part strong relationships with others that you have no way of knowing how it will bail you out in the future. Besides being better to work in a respectful and cooperative environment, push IS going to come to shove sometime and you WILL need help.
derPhysik, I'm bored, simply and without smugness, just that we're all busy. I extrapolated content area because it's not clear to me why and where you draw the line between content areas and I haven't heard a well-supported argument regarding that yet. (That's rhetorical. You don't HAVE to send more defensive stuff, I'm much more interested in anyone who has an opposing view regarding performance pay that is well supported, ie, a plan that would be evidently equitable and fair to all. I'm not convinced it is possible, but interested in being proven wrong, or at least provoked to think about it differently.)
JISAlum, I agree with you too, that the conversation was really interesting when it was with reasoned, supported arguments regarding pay and negotiation and pay for performance. Do you think we can get back to that WITHOUT someone jumping in and saying "but not this area! This area, no!"? Or was that inevitable?
Well, I'll stir the pot more: Unless you agree a Harvard lecturer should be paid the same as a kindergarten teacher, it seems that high school teachers, especially those responsible for external examinations, should be paid more than Elementary teachers.
More directly to this thread: Of course Science/Mathematics teachers should be paid more. They are needed to maintain the functioning of our technological society and hopefully find solutions to our global problems. These are the teachers most likley to instill logical and rigorous - skills, and yes, creativity and an appreciation for beauty.
More directly to this thread: Of course Science/Mathematics teachers should be paid more. They are needed to maintain the functioning of our technological society and hopefully find solutions to our global problems. These are the teachers most likley to instill logical and rigorous - skills, and yes, creativity and an appreciation for beauty.
Back to negotiating. I think that any teacher who is in a high-demand field can and should negotiate their worth. I have known math teachers, science teachers and yes, even PE teachers who happened to be in demand at the time of their hiring and could negotiate terms. Unfortunately, it is harder to negotiate salary than it is to negotiate benefits. For instance, instead of getting a $2000 increase, I negotiated for an extra trip back home to the USA and I got extra professional development funds to take my Master’s courses in lieu of monies.
When I look for my next job in the winter, I will try to get a few extras. Because of the uncertainty of the economy, it is a hirer’s market and us worker bees are a dime a dozen, so I may have to settle on the next contract just to have a good job.
When I look for my next job in the winter, I will try to get a few extras. Because of the uncertainty of the economy, it is a hirer’s market and us worker bees are a dime a dozen, so I may have to settle on the next contract just to have a good job.
derPhysik - While you might think that this set of teachers is overpaid relative to others, or that set is overpaid, relative to others, the truth is that in a good international school they work as a team. Most good international schools work hard to get the best teachers, pay them well by most standards, treat them well, and strive to keep them as long as possible (6 to 8 years or more). Most schools will not negotiate with you unless they are well and truly stuck. At the same time, you are recruiting into a buyer's market - there are TONS of teachers recruiting and superintendents have their pick of the crop. I would think your best chance of bargaining would be at the late Bethesda Fair - schools there can be pretty desperate - but are almost always NOT the top tier schools.
Our PE teachers spend a ton of time outside in 80 degree plus heat, put up with larger class sizes and deal with chidren who are less and less skilled as electronic entertainment supplants (for many of them) physical entertainment. IMHO they earn every penny they get. There is much more evaluation and marking on a regular basis in PE than you think - students who think they deserve an A have parents who want solid evidence on a regular basis of why they only got a B. Teachers who aren't rigorous tend to get over-ridden on the mark due to poor assessment practices and their contracts not renewed.
Just my 2 shekels/halalas/dinars from the Arabian Peninsula.
Our PE teachers spend a ton of time outside in 80 degree plus heat, put up with larger class sizes and deal with chidren who are less and less skilled as electronic entertainment supplants (for many of them) physical entertainment. IMHO they earn every penny they get. There is much more evaluation and marking on a regular basis in PE than you think - students who think they deserve an A have parents who want solid evidence on a regular basis of why they only got a B. Teachers who aren't rigorous tend to get over-ridden on the mark due to poor assessment practices and their contracts not renewed.
Just my 2 shekels/halalas/dinars from the Arabian Peninsula.