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[shadylane]

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Thames Pirate
>
> If you're a French Citizen and hold a
> French passport you get to vote in France, you don't get to move to Italy
> and vote in Italian elections.

In this case the French citizen would get to vote in Local, Regional and EP (European Parliament) Italian elections, but not their national elections.

There are 28 member states of the EU. Switzerland is not one of them. Neither are Norway, Iceland, Lichtenstein, Andorra, San Marino, Monaco or the Vatican, although two of them do get to mint their own Euro coins. Serbia, Bosnia, Montenegro, FYROM, Albania and Turkey are also not member states, although many of them have candidate status and visa-free travel in the Schengen area. The UK is a member for the moment, although it's 50:50 whether it will remain a member after the referendum in June. However if it did vote to leave, it is likely that Scotland would vote to leave the UK, and re-join the EU as an independent member state.

However, as to your main point - yes, a Swiss passport would give you the right to live and work in almost all EU countries.

[nomcommun]

@chanidee: Thank for your input. Multiple perspectives are useful. Honestly, considering I've had at least one parent and one student use the "N-word" when referring to me here in the US, and plenty of lesser yet ignorant remarks, nothing you described seems beyond what I can handle.

[PsyGuy]

Switzerland has never been a part of anything, they are the confirmed neutrals. Their treaty agreements give them all the same practical rights as any EU member. The arcane differences are again differences without distinction. No one (some exceptions) gets a special EU passport, and the Swiss can do everything that EU members citizens can do.
There is no hole to dig out of, Swiss citizens are members of the same group that comprise EU citizens for purposes that are relevant to IE. They can enter, live, and work the same as any EU citizen in any EU region.

@shadylane

If the UK pulls out of the EU I dont see Scotland pulling out of the UK and joining the EU. Scotland gets more from the UK than it ever will from the EU, thought the EU would welcome them happily, they need some more grownups to contribute to the bank account.

[Thames Pirate]

PsyGuy wrote:
> Swiss can do everything that EU members citizens can do.

Except vote in EU elections for starters . . . .

> They can enter, live,and work the same as any EU citizen in any EU region.

Nobody disputed that--just that Switzerland was part of the EU.

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

Switzerland is as much part of the EU as any other EU member in all the issues that matter. Its a different treaty, that get to the same destination.

[shadylane]

"Switzerland is as much part of the EU as any other EU member in all the issues that matter."

Except for no representation in the Euro Parliament, the Council of Ministers, the European Council, and they don't have an EU commissioner.

As for living and working in the EU, they do have some (limited) restrictions that EU citizens do not have.

If you look on the European Commission website, it says:

"Any person who holds the nationality of an EU country is automatically also an EU citizen. EU citizenship is additional to and does not replace national citizenship."

It also lays out EU citizen rights as:
the right:
To non-discrimination on the basis of nationality when the Treaty applies
To move and reside freely within the EU
To vote for and stand as a candidate in European Parliament and municipal elections
To be protected by the diplomatic and consular authorities of any other EU country
To petition the European Parliament and complain to the European Ombudsman
To contact and receive a response from any EU institution in one of the EU's official languages
To access European Parliament, European Commission and Council documents under certain conditions.

Swiss nationals have some, but not all of these rights.

So neither on national, or at an individual level, do Swiss citizens have the same rights in the EU as EU citizens.

That said, they do have the right to live and work almost anywhere in the EU, so your original point to the OP stands.

[Thames Pirate]

PsyGuy doesn't believe in admitting he made a mistake. Even when he is so very clearly wrong.

Swiss citizens are not EU citizens. Switzerland is not part of the EU. Nobody disputed the point about travel or work.

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

Ive admitted to errors in the past this just isnt one.

@shadylane

The exception of voting rights is trivial. Since when has EU anything superseded national authority in ANY EU matter. None of those positions in the EU matter to the common citizen.

What are the practical restrictions of Swiss citizens as opposed to EU citizens? The Swiss impose more restrictions on EU nationals than the EU imposes on Swiss citizens. Are these restrictions meaningful?

How do those rights of EU citizenship impact Swiss citizens, aside from voting?

1) CH already have non-discrimination built into their found documents.
2) CH can move and reside freely throughout EU, and Id add much better than some EU citizens do.
3) If a Swiss embassy consulate was not available a Swiss citizen can present themselves at any other EU embassy consulate for protection, etc by treaty. The Swiss/Germans are usually the ones that have embassies and consulates in places that other EU nations do not (although the Swiss embassy parties are boring).
4) Swiss citizens can complain to the ombudsman, since only one . needs to be an EU member, and when Swiss complain (when they complain) its going to be about an EU member issue (in that regard Americans, Canadians and Australians can complain to the Ombudsman about an EU issue/.).
5) The Swiss study and are proficient (and fluent in one) in at least English and French which are official EU languages.
60 Sure they can access EU documents under certain conditions would some institution claim "NO you are Swiss we will not reply to you." I dont see that happening.

Swiss nationals dont have the right to vote, but in all other EU benefits that matter they do. Again its a difference without distinction.

[Thames Pirate]

Actually, it's a distinction with minimal (though some) difference. You were called out on the distinction. You were wrong on the distinction. You were flat out wrong. Swiss citizens are not EU citizens (barring multiple citizenships of course).

[PsyGuy]

@Thames Pirate

No, its a difference without distinction, and still not wrong. Swiss nationals are in the same group as EU nationals are for purposes of IE.

[shadylane]

PsyGuy wrote:
> @Thames Pirate
>
Swiss nationals are in the same group as EU nationals are for purposes of IE.

Yes, I'd agree with you there more or less.

However you should look at the Brexit campaign. It's full of examples of how EU law supersedes the laws of member states. And some of what it says is even true. Being able to appoint a commissioner is also quite a big deal, as is a place at the Council of Ministers. Also, in theory, the Mayor of London or Paris etc could be a national of any EU member state. They could not be Swiss.

[Thames Pirate]

Again, nobody argued with your point about the difference (or lack thereof) for individuals wishing to work in Europe. We said your distinction (calling Swiss citizens EU citizens) was wrong. It still is.

[nomcommun]

Well, here I am am mostly keeping to my timeline, though I have opened myself to more regions (ME and Asia) and I didn't end up getting to teach AP Lit, but I was tasked with starting up our French program (currently in year 1) in addition to my writing course load.

I received so much help here, I thought I'd keep my word and give an update.

First, the demand for French was much higher than I was expecting and it seems a plus that I can do English too.

Second, I ended up registering with Search. So far I sent in about 10 applications, had 3 interviews (from 1 Tier 1, 1 Embassy school, and 1 upper tier 2/lower tier 1 depending who's doing the ranking). Didn't get the first job, but received very positive feedback, and the other two definitely are "acting like they want me".

At this point I am wondering what's more valuable for the future: Position doing IB English (I have no IB experience yet) or position doing upper level English (possibly AP too) and French (which would then allow me to even out my French teaching experience)?

Happy Winter Break to all!

[PsyGuy]

@nomcommun

What level is the IB position?

What you need is SLL experience, it really doesnt matter what. Your lack of success in getting AP is not a plus. If the IB position is for DIP than the IB would be more marketable than the AP....

::aside::
Thats not entirely true, a very important factor is the tier of the IS. You claim the ISs your talking too are tier 2 tier 1. A lot of IB ISs fill the second tier, they bridge ITs careers from third tier to first tier. However, the vast majority of elite tier ISs are NC ISs (either ASs or BSs) they might have an IB program (usually DIP) but they are very much NC ISs. If your current negotiations allow you to bypass the second tier (get into the second tier) or better without getting IB experience you will save yourself a lot of effort and resources adapting a curriculum you may never use, and will quickly become dated.
It will also depend on what route you want to focus on. IB Lit has a lot more "IBness" than FLs. Lit ITs tend to struggle more with the IB than FL ITs do.
::end::

If its only MYP though and the other position actually would allow you to teach AP, than that SLL of AP experience has greater utility than the MYP experience in the IB.
If neither of them are going to get you SLL experience than it depends on the quality of the French opportunity. Your marketability is better served keeping both your Lit and your FL experience current than it is in getting IB (MYP) exposure. Of course this assumes that the MYP appointment doesnt offer the opportunity in the near future of moving into DIP.
Developing your french experience to the point you can teach in French as the language of instruction is going to avail yourself to significant opportunities.

[nomcommun]

The IB is mixed MYP and DP at an Embassy school. The other school uses regular American curriculum and seems pretty open to having me either do AP Lit or train for AP French. Teaching with French as the medium of instruction shouldn't be an issue; the French portion of my interview was conducted fully in French, including educational philosophy and pedagogical scenarios. Plus I am a native speaker who keeps up with academic materials in the language.

Thanks for your advice; much of your thought process on this echoes my own. Now I just have to wait for everyone to return to work so I can move forward.