Go for 2nd tier in 2nd choice city or hold out?

[buffalofan]

You would be making around 75k baht (+ or - a few k depending on your situation) after Thai tax. After rent (and no housing allowance should be a big flag in and of itself) you are looking at roughly $2000 USD / month at best. Even less than that if you want a decent sized place that is centrally located. Don't plan on saving any money. Bangkok still has a reputation of being a cheap place to live, but this does not really have any basis in reality anymore. You could live like a working class Thai and maybe bank $1000 USD, but this would be a poor lifestyle.

Find a school that pays you minimum 100k baht/month net, with a full housing allowance on top of that, and BKK becomes a decent option. Just not worth it for less than that.

[PsyGuy]

I disagree with @buffalofan after taxes and housing costs and having USD2K/mth is about Baht¥60K/mth thats not an amount to get excited about in IE, but if its all discretionary thats not an insignificant amount of coin. You could have a lot of fun with that or even save half of it (USD$1000) and have less fun but not a boring life. there are ETs in ESOL that make half of that (Baht¥30K/mth) and have to live off of it.

[brillo]

@PsyGuy - that is the OSH package, it includes insurance + flights + 8% gratuity but no housing. I've decided not to take it, the no housing thing really did put me off, but wouldn't flaking on them give me a bad name or something? I'd heard that the whole international teaching thing was very close knit. Fair enough Re: Russell group having no real influence, I just don't want to give too many details incase someone I eventually apply to is reading this! By Russell group I meant universities which are internationally recognised, you did name them (none of them are Nottingham). Glad to hear that the recruitment cycle isn't over. I can get a terribly paid ESOL job in HK as long as I let a friend know by April so I won't be stuck in the UK. Though 2 years at a British independent won't kill me as long as it's London based.

IGCSEs may be easier for international kids, but GCSEs are certainly easier for UK ones, mostly because they include lots of coursework enabling kids to 'bank' a grade well before the exam.

Everyone saying that Bangkok isn't cheap to live in anymore is right, I flew out there this summer to take a look and a studio flat (without bills) that my friend is renting costs her $600 USD per month...it's nice, but it isn't THAT nice and it isn't particularly central either. She's local Thai (albeit quite well off) so I doubt she was being scammed. Food and transport are cheaper, but thats about it.

[PsyGuy]

@brillo

Yeah third tier.
How would you get a bad name? There is no clearing house or black list of ITs. Theres no oracle, no grand wizard that appears if you say "bottom tier" three times in the mirror, theres no secret society, no red phone. Leadership wants you to believe that such a system or mechanism exists because fear mongering is a cheap and effective means of control, but the system just doesnt exist.
IE is a global industry of thousands of ISs, leadership would like you to think they are all linked in and friends with one another but they arent. Even if you use the ISC data (bad data) there are 9,000+ ISs assuming one HOS each, are you friends with 9,000 people in your professional network? Leadership isnt either. They just want you to think that if you dont follow in step with what leadership deems it wants your career will be doom and gloom.

Well Nottingham, Manchester, Leeds, Bristol, etc.. are all Russel Group Unis, what you may mean are Golden Triangle Unis, of which the ones I listed in my prior post are part of. Steel meet Stone though only OxBridge is going to generate any valuable utility in your marketability.

Peak recruiting is over, but theres still lot of recruiting going on, its the first elite tier ISs that had advance vacancies have mostly filled them. A lot of lower tier ISs dont even bother with focused recruiting until peak recruiting time is over. It costs too much and is a waste of resources to compete with upper tier ISs when no one is interested.

Staying in a UK DS would be better than an ES anywhere. The ESOL experience wont count for anything and your relevant DE experience will begin to decay as it becomes less and less recent. Its also going to raise the question in a recruiters mind "why did you leave" and maybe youre hiding something, at the very least maybe you just arent cut out for being a DT/IT.

I was referring exclusively to the exams for the IGCSE and GCSE, but yes you get to bank more coursework marks in GCSE, but with predicted marking bands the exam is the make it or break it portion of a students accomplishment. Coursework isnt going to compensate for low exam marks.

Cheap is relative, no where is as cheap as it used to be but compared to current and relevant global costs there is still a lot of good value in lifestyle costs in the LOS. There are still ETs making Baht¥30K/mth but the bottom of IE has grown from Baht¥50K/mth to Baht¥60K/mth. Housing costs have risen, but you can still eat and travel cheap in LOS. Lots of other activities are cheap/inexpensive. You can hang at some amazing beaches with a cooler of brews for very little.

As far as housing, you need to adjust your expectations, a lot of ETs spend Baht¥5K/month on housing. Spending USD$600/mth is about what most ISs would provide either in a housing benefit or as an allowance. That studio, location, etc.. is the typical housing you should expect. Many ISs dont provide a gratuity, that 8% on your salary would be about Baht¥7400/mth. You could find a decent western 25m studio for Baht¥6000/mth but its not going to be placial or in the CBD, but its a third tier IS.

[brillo]

Thanks for the extra information, especially about the lack of black list! I honestly believed that something along those lines existed...

Good new on the recruitment cycle front then, after some thought i've decided that starting in a lower tier school is probably better in terms of pressure.

Ah shame about the housing costs. If I can find a school to cover accommodation, I'm going to seriously consider staying in the UK. A vacancy has come up near my partner in London (zone 3) and they pay well enough for me to afford a one bedroom place nearby. A large part of wanting to move abroad was based on wanting a better quality of life. Only problem is I'd be stuck at the new place for at least 2 years in order to avoid looking like I jump ship easily. (I thought 2 years was quite a short amount of time, but since speaking to recruiters in the UK I've found out that it's actually considered quite a long stint in England XD) I was also pretty keen to move this year as I don't have a family yet and figured that it would be easier.

[wrldtrvlr123]

brillo wrote:
> Thanks for the extra information, especially about the lack of black list!
> I honestly believed that something along those lines existed...
----------------------------
Don't take this as gospel. The truth probably lies somewhere in between the all powerful black list and PG's view that you are more likely to win the lottery than having a runner come back to haunt you.

PG has also advised people to...er...I mean posted as an option in response to people seeking advice: falsifying their CV, creating fake references with an email that comes to them, obtaining a teaching certificate under someone else's name/credentials and passing it off as theirs, credit card fraud, etc.

Doesn't mean all of his advice..er..options...are bad..but gather multiple opinions before making any life-changing decisions.

[brillo]

Ah I see, thank you for the second opinion :D

I've already told the school that I'm not interested. The lack of accommodation when the pay is so average put me off. If I can have a similar standard of living in the UK, I'll stay in the UK.

[PsyGuy]

@brillo

The truth is very, very far away from there being any kind of blacklist. Probably the closest there is to it is every year a couples messages get posted on AISH from X IS that if someone is working with or recruiting Y IT to contact X IS. Thats a couple times a year, but the membership of AISH is a few hundred members. There is no blacklist, no oracle, no secret back channel network of whispers in dark corners, there is no red phone.

Regardless what @WT123 cited as a runner is not to be confused with pulling a fade. A runner is when you pick up your pay packet on Friday and then leave not to return on Monday, that gets leadership "miffed" to say the least. Pulling a fade if handled and spun well is much, much easier and results in zero complications. You basically give the IS some excuse about your visa not being approved, or your passport lost in transit, a family member had an emergency, you were injured in a car accident, your goldfish died. Your apologize a bunch of times and then the IS is too busy to find your replacement to do anything even if there was something to be done.
Yes there have been ITs who were caught, the classic one is the IT in the EU IS that went on paid leave and during the leave time got an appointment at another IS essentially banking coin from two ISs, the heads of those ISs met somewhere and got to talking and the IT got found out, but thats more serendipity than any type of blacklist or clearinghouse of ITs.

@WT123

Ive never advised anyone to do anything, I merely present data. I have posted as an option when constructing ones resume that it should reflect the positive aspects of the candidate. A resume is a marketing tool to market you. What @WT123 may be referring to is the practice of ghosting on a resume, this means to remove any evidence or mention or a experience with an IS that was a poor fit. If there is no indication to pursue then an IS cant followup with anyone. Again, there is no blacklist or central clearing house of ITs, a recruiter only knows (mostly) what you present to them. I also dont recall Diogenes looking for @WT123.
In addition I have also observed and discussed that large parts of a resume are essentially unverifiable, especially when it comes to special skill sets. If an IS posts a vacancy that requires the candidate to have MUN experience or that this is a advantageous preference, that updating ones resume to include this type of skill would be very difficult for a recruiter to measure. The same would be true of other recruiting preferences such as SEN (doesnt everyone work with SEN students at some level) or ESOL, or anyone of numerous other pseudo requirements.

The use of incorporeal references was actually not my idea, it was presented by another one of the major contributors, but with which I have presented as an option. It takes advantage of the system used by premium agencies whereby the closed reference is all done by email with the evaluating individual completing a survey. Since edu is by its nature a revolving one the use of personal email addresses is common thus personal free email accounts of such individuals is readily accepted. These accounts also suffice when an IS sends a brief request to the user mail, often asking a few questions. Some individuals have gone so far as registering a .org or .net domain name (available for less than USD$20) for this purpose. This is merely a collegian discussion on the effects of personal branding and marketing, I would never advise anyone to do as such.

Again, Ive never advised anyone to do what @WT123 describes as a 'borrowed ladder', acquiring a credential by name recognition. I have simply identified that many DT teacher lookup systems rely on the use of names. One could for example if there name was "Jane Smith" go to the Texas SBEC lookup (http://secure.sbec.state.tx.us/sbeconline/virtcert.asp) type Jane Smith into the appropriate fields and identify one of the many Jane Smiths and by clicking on the link be directed to the full certificate for an educator that matches their name and that by depressing the icon for "print" would produce an educator credential bearing their name and that would be confirmed as valid by a recruiter or anyone else who attempted to confirm the validity of the certificate. This is merely for educational purposes I would never advise anyone to do that.

I dont recall ever advising anyone of perpetrating credit card fraud. I have made the observation that if an IS were to rescind an offer after an IT has already arranged flights, that if an IT were to dispute the transactions for those flights they would likely prevail and receive a refund. This is simply an academic finance ana1ysis, Id never suggest anyone actually engage in such conduct.

[Thames Pirate]

Weird things happen in IE. I agree with wrldtrvlr123 that while there is no true "black list" and leadership don't all know one another, though they ARE likely to know each other within a region or tier and, more critically, they will check with leadership at your prior schools informally in weird ways. The guy PG referenced? True story, and he was outed by a chance conversation between the two heads at an unrelated event who had not had previous contact with one another (the schools were on different continents) and didn't particularly seek one another out. So assuming all is good and that you won't get caught being too clever by half is not recommended.

It sounds like you are comfortable with your decision. Hope you feel good and that better things come your way!

[Walter]

@Dave "The truth is very, very far away from there being any kind of blacklist. Probably the closest there is to it is every year a couples messages get posted on AISH from X IS that if someone is working with or recruiting Y IT to contact X IS. Thats a couple times a year, but the membership of AISH is a few hundred members."

My dear Dave,
I'm sorry to say that you're woefully wrong in terms of the number of alerts. These come out at a rate of at least 6-8 a month through aishnet and headnet. The most serious ones relate to child safety issues; the majority concern teachers who have skipped out of their obligations. You should also know that because of the plague of child abuse in schools everywhere, there is ever-increasing pressure on heads of schools to call at least a couple of previous employers, while the so-called gap year (which may be a ghosted year in a candidate's resume) is seen as a big red flag for recruiters. Now I've no doubt that you will dislike the data that is presented and make your usual cry of "administrator scare tactics", but these are the facts.

You are right, though, that this is by no means a failsafe process. I think I told you about the late-hire teacher who was fired for gross incompetence from his job in North East Asia. After his departure, the head of school discovered that the bloated list of educational qualifications from Texas in his resume were, shall we say, exaggerated and the references were also falsified. The name of this teacher was published across the usual list serves , and the recruitment agencies were alerted, yet said teacher still got a job at a 3rd tier school in Japan - simply because the head of school wasn't in the e mail chain. So, as you say, there is life after being outed as a dodgy teacher.

[wrldtrvlr123]

I was going to let your lengthy rationalization pass but you reeled me in in this one:

"The use of incorporeal references" You just can't make this stuff up. TFF

I wonder how that rationale would fly in front of a jury: "I did not advise or encourage Ms. Bigcans to kill her husband. I merely provided the data that his life insurance was worth millions, he had been impotent for the last 5 years of her marriage and apropos of nothing, mentioned that if she were single we could run away to Tahiti where I would make her see god on a nightly basis.

[PsyGuy]

@brillo

Yes weird things happen, but they are all in the category of weird serendipity. They are nothing like a blacklist or a network. A recruiter may confirm a reference, but they arent going to ask what other ISs they have written references for, and if they do just ask your references to reply that responding wouldnt be inappropriate. Recruiters have this idea that they are entitled to whatever they ask for.

@Walter

Still dont know what you think you know.
You dont know what facts are. Among other characteristics they have have to be true.
No, its a few messages a year not 6-8 a month. So recruiters and leadership are incapable of identifying pedos (among the other HR tasks they are horrible at). Otherwise thanks for agreeing with me that there isnt a functional system or blacklist.

You can do anything outside DE or IE for up to a year, a "gap" year is not a red flag, as long as a candidate has a rational and reason. None of your smoke and mirrors is true, its not data, its just fear mongering by a fear peddler. The black list wasnt true years ago when I first addressed it on the forum and its no more true now.

@WT123

Still not my idea, but its a good one (you can thank the Gnome).
Would work out swimmingly for the witness. The life insurance is just a statement of the record. The issue of impotence is repeating a medical opinion, and the use of the term single does not mean "widow", he could simply have been discussing a divorce. Wouldnt work out to well for Mrs.Bigcans though, it would clearly provide motive.

[Walter]

Dave, Dave, with all due respect (which is deep code for absolutely none at all), you are not and never have been a school administrator, much less a school head, so you have no idea about the messages that come through head.net or aish.net.

I do agree - and have never argued to the contrary - that there is no official blacklist. I know, though, that some/many heads do what I do when the alerts come by e mail saying "If you receive an application from Teacher J, please contact me before proceeding": they forward the e mail to their HR Department, and the name is added to a growing list. This is not an attempt to "fear-monger"; rather, it is advice that it is always best to leave a school on good terms.

[vandsmith]

Walter wrote:
> Dave, Dave, with all due respect (which is deep code for absolutely none at
> all), you are not and never have been a school administrator, much less a
> school head, so you have no idea about the messages that come through
> head.net or aish.net.
>
> I do agree - and have never argued to the contrary - that there is no
> official blacklist. I know, though, that some/many heads do what I do when
> the alerts come by e mail saying "If you receive an application from
> Teacher J, please contact me before proceeding": they forward the e
> mail to their HR Department, and the name is added to a growing list. This
> is not an attempt to "fear-monger"; rather, it is advice that it
> is always best to leave a school on good terms.

so in that case, do you contact before you proceed? or is any head's word better and more reliable than a potential teacher's reasons/excuses or whatever?

v.

[PsyGuy]

@walter

You do not know what you think you know, which is to say you dont know anything. I only comment from personal experience and reliable and trusted sources, which is to say more veracity than yours.

You are a fear peddler, selling the concept of a post it stuck to a file cabinet as doom and gloom. This is not GOT, no one need bend a knee to leadership.

@vandsmith

The reflex is to accept the recommending leaderships position and claims as accurate, even if the leader is bat-poo nuts, everything they state may still be accurate. Responsible leaders are capable of parsing 'feelings' from behavior, but often you dont get much depth or detail.

Reasons are just excuses that lack creativity.