PGCE w/o QTS?

yadu · Post by **yadu** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:34 pm

Hi all,

This is my first post here, hoping to get some feedback/guidance.

First let give you a little background on my position. I have been working at a (low tier) private High School in China for a year and a half. Before that I was teaching ESL for about five years. At the moment I am teaching IB economics (the school is IB certified). I have a BA in Economics, and am looking to up my qualifications in order to get into a better teaching/living situation.

One day I came across this program from the University of Nottingham:

http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/education/p ... ional.aspx

This is essentially an "international" PGCE for people teaching overseas. It is done almost completely online. As I am not from the UK (American), I am having some difficulty assessing the value of this cert.

From talking to some coworkers that have a PGCE and QTS, I understand that ANY PGCE will not automatically grant QTS. I am, however, wondering if "just" having this certification as well as three (or more) years teaching the IB syllabus will open some doors into better schools and locations.

Would anyone like to take a stab as to whether or not this would be considered a "real" PGCE or if it would be considered more like one of the numerous online TEFL certs?

Thanks for your time/input.

Yadu

Nomadic Teacher · Post by **Nomadic Teacher** » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:02 pm

Hi,

The PGCE is a year long teaching qualification which never runs out and can be used worldwide. I recommend to do this course-I know people who have done the same and are now teaching in good int schools.

QTS is qualified teacher status in the uk-you need to do 1 year in a state school to get this, but working outside of the uk this is irrelevant. I like many have this certification (I did mine in uk).

Go for it!

yadu · Post by **yadu** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:37 pm

Thanks for the reply.

I sent the university that runs this PGCE program an email about a month ago with a few questions, with no reply. Not a good sign.

Anyway, the biggest issue I'm wrestling with is.... I am American, the PGCE a UK qualification. I've heard that at least SOME schools want a qualification from the state/province that you are from.

If I do this program, will it be recognized by international schools? I know it's hard to generalize the policies of schools worldwide, but.... Surely some of you with a lot more experience under your belt can give me some insight.

Do schools generally want qualifications from your "home", or does it not matter?

Thanks all!

westcoaster · Post by **westcoaster** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:53 pm

You don't have to do your teacher training in your own country. But you do need to make sure that your state/ province will recognize the qualification if you choose to return home and teach. I know someone who did his pgde in Scotland and then returned to Ontario to teach after he finished his program.

westcoaster · Post by **westcoaster** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:59 pm

Oops, just realized that I hadn't really answered your question.

I have noticed when I've looked through some staff webpages of different international school websites that some teachers were trained in a different country from their own. For example: I've seen some American and Canadians with Australian Master of Teaching degrees.

markholmes · Post by **markholmes** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:25 pm

You may want to post your question here (this subject comes up every now and then);
http://community.tes.co.uk/forums/64.aspx

There seems to be some debate as to whether an overseas PGCE holds the same weight as one done in the UK. Also, some schools will not entertain you if you haven't done that extra probationary year in the UK. However, I would think, as an IB economics teachers most schools would over look that aspect.

I seem to remember the'P' in PGCE standing for 'Post-Graduate' in the UK and 'Professional' on the overseas one.

I'm kinda the other way around, a Canadian trained Brit.

Westcoaster, did you find employment for September?

westcoaster · Post by **westcoaster** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:17 am

Op- I've seen some threads about the overseas PGCE on the ajarn.com forum. It's worth reading.

Markholmes- No, not yet. I've had a couple of interviews already and have a couple more interviews lined up this month. So far, it looks like it may be a Canuck int' school for me.

markholmes · Post by **markholmes** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:34 am

I am no expert, but most schools will require a PGCE, B.Ed. or teaching certificate from a western country. An M.Ed. from Bath is none of those. I think the M.Ed. is more of an extension to an already credentialed teacher, it won't replace basic teaching certification. But, of course if you are in a niche market, anything can be overlooked.

I think it's a little harsh to say the overseas PGCE is only slightly better than a TEFL. That is a gross exaggeration, however, you may continue to find barriers in the better schools if you do not complete a probationary year, preferably in the UK. Your PGCE will give you Qualified Teacher Status. however, in the UK I believe, you need that extra probationary year to start getting bumped up the salary scale. Technically, the probationary year shouldn't be needed in overseas schools, but that would depend how British the school is and how many applications they receive each year.

I would think that an American school might look at it suspiciously too. An American. never having lived in the UK, with a UK credential, applying to American schools. I have read about something called the George Mason Fast Train course somewhere in the US. I don't know the specifics, but you may want to do a search for it. I thought it was a US based distance teaching certificate. I could be wrong

Mind you, I'm quite intrigued by a Masters with only six papers. I may well look into that :-)

markholmes · Post by **markholmes** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:26 pm

Where I live an M.Ed. does not trump a B.Ed., it is an extension of it. You can't get certification without the B.Ed.. You would not be granted a teaching certificate based purely on a M.Ed.

To the original poster, I suggest you go over to the TES forum and inquire there, as there are many British international teachers there, many having completed there probationary year and many that haven't.

I would also suggest you look at the US based possibilities.

markholmes · Post by **markholmes** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:08 pm

In Canada a B.Ed. is generally a one year intensive 60 credit course that teaches you how to teach with courses specific to your specialty plus Ed Psych, Special Ed., Inclusive Ed. courses, etc. It is extemely intense and is an all rounder (a little bit of everything to get you going). Generally, it is taken as a fifth year of university. An M.Ed. is taken after that five years to extend into a field of interest, for example, counselling, Special Ed., administation, international ed., etc.

Your comment, "you can also then use [your M.Ed.] to purse a QTS at a later time if you wish". Maybe you could use it in the US, but it wouldn't get you any closer to QTS in the UK, because you would still need a PGCE or equivalent. An M.Ed. in international ed. definitely not being equivalent. Its a different qualification with a completely different set of learning outcomes.

Nemo. · Post by **Nemo.** » Sat Mar 19, 2011 9:57 am

Hi as I understand it Sunderland and Nottingham have stripped away the subject knowledge/national curriculum part of an English PGCE and made a qualification with minimal observation. Sunderland I heard was stricter. For non uk readers - No qts (qualified teacher status) simply as that is separate from a pgce and you need at least 14weeks UK teaching experience in a state maintained school (some restrictions) and submit a portfoli of evidence to support 33 quality standards (uk government are throwing these away though). Usually a pgce comes with reccomendation of qts and part of the pgce supports this. Once a teacher passes these and the skills tests (mickey mouse tests IMHO) they are reg for qts that lasts a lifetime (unless struck off).

If a teacher has good contacts, excellent refs but no certification and gets an ipgce then I guess it has value as that peron may need the certificate for the school website and it would update the teacher with the latest theories. For a newbie to teaching mostly useless I reckon!

Due to some over zealous pen pusher someone noticced after an European review of qualifications (hahaha Germans you may beat us in football but now you have bachelor degrees so there!) that post in pgce was a fragent lie so I did the post version of a pgce and got 40 M credits. If you fail that you get a professional pgce. The ipgce I note comes with 60M credits so is 1/3 of a masters in ed.

I started the MTL (masters in tedium and low cost provision lol or rather masters in teaching and learning) which was supposed to be the thing to do after a pgce. The current government abandoned it and I quit as very poor provider I won't name or shame in east London.

Next year sacked squaddies will be teaching so my advice is join the army and fast track as a teacher!

The ipgce