Letter of Intent
Letter of Intent
General Question: How long is appropriate between receiving/signing a LOI and receiving a contract?
More Specific: I signed an LOI with a well known school and I was just wondering if it is common for a pretty prestigious school to reconsider following through on an LOI?
Silly Question: How long between sending an email should you wait to hear back before sending another email? I just don't want to be that nagging person.
Side note: I understand that an LOI is not a contract and that I should continue my search process. I just desperately want this job. Not a good feeling to be in limbo.
More Specific: I signed an LOI with a well known school and I was just wondering if it is common for a pretty prestigious school to reconsider following through on an LOI?
Silly Question: How long between sending an email should you wait to hear back before sending another email? I just don't want to be that nagging person.
Side note: I understand that an LOI is not a contract and that I should continue my search process. I just desperately want this job. Not a good feeling to be in limbo.
Re: Letter of Intent
If it's a well known Tier 1 school the LOI is binding. I've had two well known schools I worked at where the actual contract didn't come until a significant amount of time after the LOI.
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- Location: Japan
Re: Letter of Intent
teachme wrote:
> General Question: How long is appropriate between receiving/signing a LOI
> and receiving a contract?
>
> More Specific: I signed an LOI with a well known school and I was just
> wondering if it is common for a pretty prestigious school to reconsider
> following through on an LOI?
>
> Silly Question: How long between sending an email should you wait to hear
> back before sending another email? I just don't want to be that nagging
> person.
>
> Side note: I understand that an LOI is not a contract and that I should
> continue my search process. I just desperately want this job. Not a good
> feeling to be in limbo.
===============
What did the LOI commit the school to? In general it is relatively rare for reputable schools to back out of a bonafide job offer, much less a signed agreement (barring some real problem on your end that they did not have access to when they made it (like a horrible reference, you lied about something, CRB problem etc).
Admin are generally horrible at HR (and many HR are horrible at communication) so delays are common and not something to stress over. Contracts can take months, even with good schools. If you are concerned and don't want to be that person then just pick up the phone and call your point of contact. Odds are they are used to people who need reassurance and will not think less of you. Congrats on getting a job that you obviously REALLY wanted!
PS: If you signed a LOI then many schools might not be too happy if you are continuing to search (depending on what the LOI actually says). Call them and put this to rest.
> General Question: How long is appropriate between receiving/signing a LOI
> and receiving a contract?
>
> More Specific: I signed an LOI with a well known school and I was just
> wondering if it is common for a pretty prestigious school to reconsider
> following through on an LOI?
>
> Silly Question: How long between sending an email should you wait to hear
> back before sending another email? I just don't want to be that nagging
> person.
>
> Side note: I understand that an LOI is not a contract and that I should
> continue my search process. I just desperately want this job. Not a good
> feeling to be in limbo.
===============
What did the LOI commit the school to? In general it is relatively rare for reputable schools to back out of a bonafide job offer, much less a signed agreement (barring some real problem on your end that they did not have access to when they made it (like a horrible reference, you lied about something, CRB problem etc).
Admin are generally horrible at HR (and many HR are horrible at communication) so delays are common and not something to stress over. Contracts can take months, even with good schools. If you are concerned and don't want to be that person then just pick up the phone and call your point of contact. Odds are they are used to people who need reassurance and will not think less of you. Congrats on getting a job that you obviously REALLY wanted!
PS: If you signed a LOI then many schools might not be too happy if you are continuing to search (depending on what the LOI actually says). Call them and put this to rest.
Re: Letter of Intent
wrldtrvlr123 wrote:
> PS: If you signed a LOI then many schools might not be too happy if you are
> continuing to search (depending on what the LOI actually says). Call them and put
> this to rest.
The LOI said that it was dependent on my references basically. I know that my references are good, but I just do not like the waiting process. I want to know that everything is settled. The only reason that I am still looking is because everything I have read on here about LOI's is that they aren't binding and that you should continue looking, PsyGuy 's posts specifically. I just don't know what the appropriate process is and what I should be doing (twiddle thumbs and try to be patient?). I don't want to miss out on an opportunity and then not get the contract from this school because I do not want to stay at my current school for another year. I have only emailed two other schools.
So you think I should stop contacting other schools? I don't want to upset this school, I do like them and do want to work for them.
> PS: If you signed a LOI then many schools might not be too happy if you are
> continuing to search (depending on what the LOI actually says). Call them and put
> this to rest.
The LOI said that it was dependent on my references basically. I know that my references are good, but I just do not like the waiting process. I want to know that everything is settled. The only reason that I am still looking is because everything I have read on here about LOI's is that they aren't binding and that you should continue looking, PsyGuy 's posts specifically. I just don't know what the appropriate process is and what I should be doing (twiddle thumbs and try to be patient?). I don't want to miss out on an opportunity and then not get the contract from this school because I do not want to stay at my current school for another year. I have only emailed two other schools.
So you think I should stop contacting other schools? I don't want to upset this school, I do like them and do want to work for them.
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- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Letter of Intent
teachme wrote:
> wrldtrvlr123 wrote:
>
> > PS: If you signed a LOI then many schools might not be too happy if you are
> > continuing to search (depending on what the LOI actually says). Call them and
> put
> > this to rest.
>
>
> The LOI said that it was dependent on my references basically. I know that my
> references are good, but I just do not like the waiting process. I want to know that
> everything is settled. The only reason that I am still looking is because everything
> I have read on here about LOI's is that they aren't binding and that you should
> continue looking, PsyGuy 's posts specifically. I just don't know what the
> appropriate process is and what I should be doing (twiddle thumbs and try to be
> patient?). I don't want to miss out on an opportunity and then not get the contract
> from this school because I do not want to stay at my current school for another year.
> I have only emailed two other schools.
>
> So you think I should stop contacting other schools? I don't want to upset this
> school, I do like them and do want to work for them.
=======================
Opinions vary and everyone is entitled to them. Maybe one of our resident admin types will chime in with theirs. My opinion is that you should pick up the phone ASAP and touch base with them, explain your apprehension and reinforce that you REALLY want to work for their school.
> wrldtrvlr123 wrote:
>
> > PS: If you signed a LOI then many schools might not be too happy if you are
> > continuing to search (depending on what the LOI actually says). Call them and
> put
> > this to rest.
>
>
> The LOI said that it was dependent on my references basically. I know that my
> references are good, but I just do not like the waiting process. I want to know that
> everything is settled. The only reason that I am still looking is because everything
> I have read on here about LOI's is that they aren't binding and that you should
> continue looking, PsyGuy 's posts specifically. I just don't know what the
> appropriate process is and what I should be doing (twiddle thumbs and try to be
> patient?). I don't want to miss out on an opportunity and then not get the contract
> from this school because I do not want to stay at my current school for another year.
> I have only emailed two other schools.
>
> So you think I should stop contacting other schools? I don't want to upset this
> school, I do like them and do want to work for them.
=======================
Opinions vary and everyone is entitled to them. Maybe one of our resident admin types will chime in with theirs. My opinion is that you should pick up the phone ASAP and touch base with them, explain your apprehension and reinforce that you REALLY want to work for their school.
Re: Letter of Intent
PG will tell you to keep looking, but he is in the minority. Look at others' opinions too.
A "well known school" is very unlikely to back out of an LOI. Despite PG's opinion, an LOI is in fact binding. In your case, the only thing to upset it could be references, and that pretty much means that you're ok as long as your references are at least lukewarm.
A well known school wants to keep its reputation intact (I'd even say they want to do the right thing), and breaking an LOI is neither.
As mentioned above, contracts can take a long time, months even. That's probably why this school starts with an LOI - their circumstances dictate a long contract process, so they need something in the interim. Other schools with simpler processes start with a contract right away. And it's not necessarily the school's fault. Government red tape can be the problem. Or if the school is an offshoot of a larger organization, there might be layers and layers of internal requirements. Or it could just be admin or HR taking time. Perhaps they're waiting until all hires are complete and doing all the contracts in one sweep. Lots of possibilities. Try not to let it worry you.
And feel free to pick up the phone or email. Touch base. Ask when you might expect the contract.
A "well known school" is very unlikely to back out of an LOI. Despite PG's opinion, an LOI is in fact binding. In your case, the only thing to upset it could be references, and that pretty much means that you're ok as long as your references are at least lukewarm.
A well known school wants to keep its reputation intact (I'd even say they want to do the right thing), and breaking an LOI is neither.
As mentioned above, contracts can take a long time, months even. That's probably why this school starts with an LOI - their circumstances dictate a long contract process, so they need something in the interim. Other schools with simpler processes start with a contract right away. And it's not necessarily the school's fault. Government red tape can be the problem. Or if the school is an offshoot of a larger organization, there might be layers and layers of internal requirements. Or it could just be admin or HR taking time. Perhaps they're waiting until all hires are complete and doing all the contracts in one sweep. Lots of possibilities. Try not to let it worry you.
And feel free to pick up the phone or email. Touch base. Ask when you might expect the contract.
Response
@Sid has a bunch of bunk. LOIs are not binding, fact, if they were binding they would be called a contract. Only contracts matter. Why? The central, unequivocal, locust of a contract (again fact) is that it requires "A Meeting of Minds", thats a contract thats binding. An LOI is a meeting of minds thats in progress. Thats exactly what a lawyer would argue and prevail upon should you ever take your LOI to court. Leadership (that @Sid is) would like to sell you and tell you otherwise because it works for their agenda.
"Very Unlikely" is just leadership speak for entirely possible. Why? Again, it happens all the time. Month before you leave sorry our IT didnt leave, and so we are withdrawing the offer, really sorry, bad for and all good luck. That and any other number of countless reasons could happen, or no reason at all. You think an IS breaking contract with a lame excuse is going to mean anything to anyone in IE. Sure it will get them a poor review but they will just shrug and move on to the long line of IT candidates who would still gladly take the offer.
More leadership bunk. A well established IS already has the contract drafted. It takes maybe 15 minutes to fill in the blanks, load the printer with letterhead, and then find the ISs seal/hanko/etc.. Everything else is just excuses. Very little dictates a long contract process:
1) Red Tape: Hows that a problem, if the IS doesnt have approval to hire you then your LOI is worthless. Every IS has language somewhere that states failure to obtain a work visa is grounds for nullification of the agreement whether its a contract or an LOI or a hand shake, or etched in blood on stone tablets. Its crazy talk.
2) Off Shoot of a larger Organization: Means incompetent or no influence. These organizations have a central HR/Personnel department. Whats their to get? Either the IS has authority to hire you or they dont, meaning again your LOI is worthless if it requires approval of someone further up the organization. What if they dont approve it? Your LOI is again worthless. If they are going to approve it and its just a rubber stamp than anything longer than a week is just incompetence, negligence or lazy. Draft contract, email to supreme being, supreme being stamps and signs, emails back to HR, sends it to you. Week tops.
3) Taking their time means lazy: Why are they being lazy if they really want and need you.
4) All contracts complete: Why does the stamp/seal/hanko wither on any day except one in a month or a year. Again, this isnt drafting a contract, its completing a template. Name, address, passport number, salary, maybe a few lines for benefits, load printer, print, sign, seal. 15 minutes. How many contracts are they doing hundreds. More like 20 tops for a year at most. Even less if its a handful. Oh my gosh they need to save the 4 minutes it takes to load the printer and find the seal each time. Bunk.
Now to your questions:
Anywhere between a few days to two weeks, anything longer is cause for worry.
Sure upper tier (1st tier elite ISs) withdrawal contracts. However its in general uncommon, until it happens to you. There are all sorts of reasons an IS may do so. Nothing they do to one IT is going to effect their reputation one bit.
Two working days, maybe three. Id stck too two, you arent being a nag.
As @WT123 indicated its important to look at what the LOI committed them too. Every IS even contracts have outs for the IS.
Further agree with @WT123 that leadership is generally horrible at HR.
yes, ISs generally wont be happy if you continue looking but 1) Dont tell them and 2) Whats there to argue you dont have a contract. Only contracts are contracts.
Well you believe your references are good, you wouldnt be the first IT to be shocked and surprised that a reference was sabotaging them behind your back.
My advice contact the IS, and the leadership (senior or executive leadership directly). Express your concerns and ask for your contract. You are entitled to some answers and a response, if they blow you off as an excuse, consider that as a sign of your relationship to come. Good leadership will understand your anxiety and respond appropriately. It is nothing, absolutely nothing for a leadership to tell HR to process your contract.
"Very Unlikely" is just leadership speak for entirely possible. Why? Again, it happens all the time. Month before you leave sorry our IT didnt leave, and so we are withdrawing the offer, really sorry, bad for and all good luck. That and any other number of countless reasons could happen, or no reason at all. You think an IS breaking contract with a lame excuse is going to mean anything to anyone in IE. Sure it will get them a poor review but they will just shrug and move on to the long line of IT candidates who would still gladly take the offer.
More leadership bunk. A well established IS already has the contract drafted. It takes maybe 15 minutes to fill in the blanks, load the printer with letterhead, and then find the ISs seal/hanko/etc.. Everything else is just excuses. Very little dictates a long contract process:
1) Red Tape: Hows that a problem, if the IS doesnt have approval to hire you then your LOI is worthless. Every IS has language somewhere that states failure to obtain a work visa is grounds for nullification of the agreement whether its a contract or an LOI or a hand shake, or etched in blood on stone tablets. Its crazy talk.
2) Off Shoot of a larger Organization: Means incompetent or no influence. These organizations have a central HR/Personnel department. Whats their to get? Either the IS has authority to hire you or they dont, meaning again your LOI is worthless if it requires approval of someone further up the organization. What if they dont approve it? Your LOI is again worthless. If they are going to approve it and its just a rubber stamp than anything longer than a week is just incompetence, negligence or lazy. Draft contract, email to supreme being, supreme being stamps and signs, emails back to HR, sends it to you. Week tops.
3) Taking their time means lazy: Why are they being lazy if they really want and need you.
4) All contracts complete: Why does the stamp/seal/hanko wither on any day except one in a month or a year. Again, this isnt drafting a contract, its completing a template. Name, address, passport number, salary, maybe a few lines for benefits, load printer, print, sign, seal. 15 minutes. How many contracts are they doing hundreds. More like 20 tops for a year at most. Even less if its a handful. Oh my gosh they need to save the 4 minutes it takes to load the printer and find the seal each time. Bunk.
Now to your questions:
Anywhere between a few days to two weeks, anything longer is cause for worry.
Sure upper tier (1st tier elite ISs) withdrawal contracts. However its in general uncommon, until it happens to you. There are all sorts of reasons an IS may do so. Nothing they do to one IT is going to effect their reputation one bit.
Two working days, maybe three. Id stck too two, you arent being a nag.
As @WT123 indicated its important to look at what the LOI committed them too. Every IS even contracts have outs for the IS.
Further agree with @WT123 that leadership is generally horrible at HR.
yes, ISs generally wont be happy if you continue looking but 1) Dont tell them and 2) Whats there to argue you dont have a contract. Only contracts are contracts.
Well you believe your references are good, you wouldnt be the first IT to be shocked and surprised that a reference was sabotaging them behind your back.
My advice contact the IS, and the leadership (senior or executive leadership directly). Express your concerns and ask for your contract. You are entitled to some answers and a response, if they blow you off as an excuse, consider that as a sign of your relationship to come. Good leadership will understand your anxiety and respond appropriately. It is nothing, absolutely nothing for a leadership to tell HR to process your contract.
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Re: Letter of Intent
I would contact the school after a couple of weeks to ask how the contract will be handled. If the school has a good reputation I would not worry about it too much.
Whether or not a LOI is legally binding is fuzzy and a moot point anyways. The school is not going to take you court. That said, they might try to blackball you if they perceive (legally or not) that you are not keeping your end of the deal. Your professional reputation is the more of the issue here than legal matters.
Whether or not a LOI is legally binding is fuzzy and a moot point anyways. The school is not going to take you court. That said, they might try to blackball you if they perceive (legally or not) that you are not keeping your end of the deal. Your professional reputation is the more of the issue here than legal matters.
Discussion
There is no black list and there is no threat to your professional reputation, you dont have a contract (only contracts matter). The issue isnt the IS taking you to court its what your remedies are if the IS withdraws/breaks the contract. You dont have a legal basis that would prevail in court. The IS isnt going to give you anything (at best you might get a months salary) and no premium agency is going to give you anything (except maybe give you access to the database again). You could be stuck in summer with nothing and few if any opportunities. you have to protect and watch after your own interests because no one in IE is going to do that.
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Re: Discussion
PsyGuy wrote:
> There is no black list and there is no threat to your professional
> reputation, you dont have a contract (only contracts matter). The issue
> isnt the IS taking you to court its what your remedies are if the IS
> withdraws/breaks the contract. You dont have a legal basis that would
> prevail in court. The IS isnt going to give you anything (at best you might
> get a months salary) and no premium agency is going to give you anything
> (except maybe give you access to the database again). You could be stuck in
> summer with nothing and few if any opportunities. you have to protect and
> watch after your own interests because no one in IE is going to do that.
=======================
So your position is that there is no downside to continuing to job hunt after signing an LOI? There is no significant chance that Search or equivalent agency will cut you off? There is no significant chance that the school you signed with would find out about you interviewing with/accepting an offer with other schools and it ending up costing you both offers? It seems that you feel that only contracts matter and even those don't matter all that much because the other school probably won't find out and even with a contract a school could screw you anyway, so never stop hunting.
I'm not up for a long pointless exchange of comments so I'll assuming that is your view, I'll just do a preemptive sum up for the OP and anyone else in this situation:
We (and I will include the majority of experienced int'l school teachers/admin types) disagree.
> There is no black list and there is no threat to your professional
> reputation, you dont have a contract (only contracts matter). The issue
> isnt the IS taking you to court its what your remedies are if the IS
> withdraws/breaks the contract. You dont have a legal basis that would
> prevail in court. The IS isnt going to give you anything (at best you might
> get a months salary) and no premium agency is going to give you anything
> (except maybe give you access to the database again). You could be stuck in
> summer with nothing and few if any opportunities. you have to protect and
> watch after your own interests because no one in IE is going to do that.
=======================
So your position is that there is no downside to continuing to job hunt after signing an LOI? There is no significant chance that Search or equivalent agency will cut you off? There is no significant chance that the school you signed with would find out about you interviewing with/accepting an offer with other schools and it ending up costing you both offers? It seems that you feel that only contracts matter and even those don't matter all that much because the other school probably won't find out and even with a contract a school could screw you anyway, so never stop hunting.
I'm not up for a long pointless exchange of comments so I'll assuming that is your view, I'll just do a preemptive sum up for the OP and anyone else in this situation:
We (and I will include the majority of experienced int'l school teachers/admin types) disagree.
Re: Letter of Intent
Personally I'd keep hunting right up until the very end, unless I'd found my absolute number 1 dream job (in which case, there'd be no point searching further).
I've signed a contract now, and I'm happy enough with the location and salary. But let's say next week ISB Bangkok call and offer me a job (yeah yeah, stop the laughter, it's just an example) then you can damn well bet I'll be dropping the first school like a hot brick. Contracts mean nothing next to your quality of life, and I would not turn down a dream job in a dream location just because of a sense of 'ethics'.
I've signed a contract now, and I'm happy enough with the location and salary. But let's say next week ISB Bangkok call and offer me a job (yeah yeah, stop the laughter, it's just an example) then you can damn well bet I'll be dropping the first school like a hot brick. Contracts mean nothing next to your quality of life, and I would not turn down a dream job in a dream location just because of a sense of 'ethics'.
Reply
@WT123
No my advise was:
"My advice contact the IS, and the leadership (senior or executive leadership directly). Express your concerns and ask for your contract. You are entitled to some answers and a response, if they blow you off as an excuse, consider that as a sign of your relationship to come. Good leadership will understand your anxiety and respond appropriately. It is nothing, absolutely nothing for a leadership to tell HR to process your contract."
Notice how it starts with the phrase "My advice" indicating among other things that this is my advise.
Further there is no appreciable downside to continue a job search because the LW doesnt have an appointment. Only contracts matter, they have an IS that is claiming to offer them a contract at a later point.
The LW made no indication they obtained this appointment through a premium agency, but even assuming they did, so what, dont go looking for a backup or additional opportunities though a premium agency or a agency repped IS.
How are they going to know there is no global clearing house of IT appointments, there is no red phone or big screen broadcasting vacancies and when and who fills them.
Yes we disagree, and it wouldnt be the first time I digress from the majority of the contributors (assuming its true), and wont likely be the last. Doesnt make it any less true.
No my advise was:
"My advice contact the IS, and the leadership (senior or executive leadership directly). Express your concerns and ask for your contract. You are entitled to some answers and a response, if they blow you off as an excuse, consider that as a sign of your relationship to come. Good leadership will understand your anxiety and respond appropriately. It is nothing, absolutely nothing for a leadership to tell HR to process your contract."
Notice how it starts with the phrase "My advice" indicating among other things that this is my advise.
Further there is no appreciable downside to continue a job search because the LW doesnt have an appointment. Only contracts matter, they have an IS that is claiming to offer them a contract at a later point.
The LW made no indication they obtained this appointment through a premium agency, but even assuming they did, so what, dont go looking for a backup or additional opportunities though a premium agency or a agency repped IS.
How are they going to know there is no global clearing house of IT appointments, there is no red phone or big screen broadcasting vacancies and when and who fills them.
Yes we disagree, and it wouldnt be the first time I digress from the majority of the contributors (assuming its true), and wont likely be the last. Doesnt make it any less true.
Re: Letter of Intent
The value of Dave’s “advise” (sic) to a similar question:
by Nomad68 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:54 pm
I was made an offer by a school subject to references and the usual checks. That was a month ago. Since then I have heard nothing, even after sending on some supplementary documents. (My references don't worry me - but there is one former principal I don't list who is known to try to scupper/spike references for former colleagues as he has an axe to grind after he was fired and returned to classroom teaching). So, how long more should I wait to hear before I chase it up with the school?
Response
by PsyGuy » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:22 am
They dont want you. The rule is when an IS wants you they act like they want you. If you have a contract I would follow up immediately. Absent that, its likely your past principal poisoned your candidacy. Regardless I would move on and continue your vacancy search in the mean time.
Repy
by PsyGuy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:39 pm
@Nomad68
If the offer letter was as binding and informed as a contract it would be called a contract. Only contracts matter.
Re: Job offer made and then...silence!
by Nomad68 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:42 am
Its a new school and contracts are still being written. Having worked in that country before I know its not unusual to see the contract on arrival. I have another week to wait until they return from vacation.
Reply
by PsyGuy » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:59 am
@Nomad68
Its been 2 months now, how long do you think it takes to write a contract. A law office can customize a template and have it done in a few days.
Re: Job offer made and then...silence!
by Nomad68 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:58 am
Happy to report that the offer and position have been confirmed. As it is a new school in its start up year things were slow to get out but it looks hopeful.
by Nomad68 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:54 pm
I was made an offer by a school subject to references and the usual checks. That was a month ago. Since then I have heard nothing, even after sending on some supplementary documents. (My references don't worry me - but there is one former principal I don't list who is known to try to scupper/spike references for former colleagues as he has an axe to grind after he was fired and returned to classroom teaching). So, how long more should I wait to hear before I chase it up with the school?
Response
by PsyGuy » Sun Dec 04, 2016 5:22 am
They dont want you. The rule is when an IS wants you they act like they want you. If you have a contract I would follow up immediately. Absent that, its likely your past principal poisoned your candidacy. Regardless I would move on and continue your vacancy search in the mean time.
Repy
by PsyGuy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:39 pm
@Nomad68
If the offer letter was as binding and informed as a contract it would be called a contract. Only contracts matter.
Re: Job offer made and then...silence!
by Nomad68 » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:42 am
Its a new school and contracts are still being written. Having worked in that country before I know its not unusual to see the contract on arrival. I have another week to wait until they return from vacation.
Reply
by PsyGuy » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:59 am
@Nomad68
Its been 2 months now, how long do you think it takes to write a contract. A law office can customize a template and have it done in a few days.
Re: Job offer made and then...silence!
by Nomad68 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 6:58 am
Happy to report that the offer and position have been confirmed. As it is a new school in its start up year things were slow to get out but it looks hopeful.