Haha, as always, there is an asterisk. My friend must only be a Master Class because, well, unicorns don't exist.
Yes, often the meet and greet is just the final F2F to determine fit. However, that is still an "interview," and it happens to all classes of teachers.
You say there is a formula or recipe. Do you need the secret unicorn handshake to get the formula? After all, you must know it since you know about it. What's the secret ingredient? Or is it like the first rule of fight club?
I didn't expect to be cold contacted by an upper tier IS. However, I know one of those people who has the full package--taught the children of royalty, top international military brass (guess where he did that?), elite schools on two continents, leadership positions, etc. He can apply anywhere and probably get the job through his contacts (he is an excellent networker and has stayed in touch with some BIG names internationally). Schools don't cold contact him, either. My network does extend pretty far and we got hired at the Tier 1 school that was our top choice. I have friends who have worked or do work at elite and Tier 1 schools (Shanghai American, ASIJ, Singapore American, Amsterdam, Brussels, Copenhagen, Hanoi, Bogota, London, Budapest) as well as numerous other schools, and none of them have ever heard of such a thing. So yes, my network does cover quite a range. No unicorns around.
Of the two of us, I am generally the rainbows and pixie dust one. You are the cynic. Why is it that you are so upbeat on this one? Unicorns don't exist.
Rockstar ITs
Re: Rockstar ITs
ugh, you three are killing me with this blather.
v.
v.
Re: Rockstar ITs
So...this rockstar IT.
Does a trailing spouse affect them? Do kids lessen their value?
The argument is that Master Class ITs end up at tier ones (usually) but have to fight for it?
Does a trailing spouse affect them? Do kids lessen their value?
The argument is that Master Class ITs end up at tier ones (usually) but have to fight for it?
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Likely they were a master class IT and not a superstar IT.
No its not really an interview, and not so much about determine fit. That what typival IT interviews are based on, determining fit, superstar IT meet and greets are more about the looking in the eye, hand shake and getting a vibe from an IT. Its not an interview in by the standard definition.
Whats fight club?
So your "friend" doesnt need to interview, they can get the appointment based on their contacts? Which is it, everyone needs an interview or superstar ITs dont?
Its likely they are not aware your friend would even be available, and the cause why they arent cold contacted, which if they were wouldnt really be a cold contact.
Working at an elite tier IS or first tier IS is far from the sole requirement of being a superstar IT, your network likely doesnt include ITs of that caliber.
This forum has a Unicorn, you arent it.
Something must be believed to be seen.
Likely they were a master class IT and not a superstar IT.
No its not really an interview, and not so much about determine fit. That what typival IT interviews are based on, determining fit, superstar IT meet and greets are more about the looking in the eye, hand shake and getting a vibe from an IT. Its not an interview in by the standard definition.
Whats fight club?
So your "friend" doesnt need to interview, they can get the appointment based on their contacts? Which is it, everyone needs an interview or superstar ITs dont?
Its likely they are not aware your friend would even be available, and the cause why they arent cold contacted, which if they were wouldnt really be a cold contact.
Working at an elite tier IS or first tier IS is far from the sole requirement of being a superstar IT, your network likely doesnt include ITs of that caliber.
This forum has a Unicorn, you arent it.
Something must be believed to be seen.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1151
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Rockstar ITs
My friend can get the handshake meet and greet through contacts. Determining fit vs. getting a vibe is semantics, and you know it.
So even unicorns need to make themselves available--i.e. contact the school and express interest or at least availability. They aren't cold-contacted. So no, there isn't a list of unicorns floating among directors.
Ah, yes. Since my friends at unicorn hangouts like the schools I listed haven't met unicorns, my network must not be unicorn enough. Of course, you know dozens of unicorns because, well, of course you do.
I don't claim to be a unicorn because there is no such thing (so no insult there despite the intent). But of course the forum has a unicorn (because otherwise you would not be able to contradict my claim), but naturally you won't say who it is.
So I have to believe in unicorns to see one? Even if I work in a unicorn hangout? If they exist, they are still in the trenches teaching with the non-mythical ITs, so they would be seen by those who work in the same trench.
Of course, if you are delusional enough you can see anything you believe in. Even unicorns.
So even unicorns need to make themselves available--i.e. contact the school and express interest or at least availability. They aren't cold-contacted. So no, there isn't a list of unicorns floating among directors.
Ah, yes. Since my friends at unicorn hangouts like the schools I listed haven't met unicorns, my network must not be unicorn enough. Of course, you know dozens of unicorns because, well, of course you do.
I don't claim to be a unicorn because there is no such thing (so no insult there despite the intent). But of course the forum has a unicorn (because otherwise you would not be able to contradict my claim), but naturally you won't say who it is.
So I have to believe in unicorns to see one? Even if I work in a unicorn hangout? If they exist, they are still in the trenches teaching with the non-mythical ITs, so they would be seen by those who work in the same trench.
Of course, if you are delusional enough you can see anything you believe in. Even unicorns.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
No, its significance not semantics, vibe is reflexive, fit is ana1itical.
Your exemplar is one way of making your availability known. A superstar IT can just register with an agency and wait for the ISs to contact them. Yes recruiters pull resumes and will do 'touches' with superstar ITs.
Well you think all the unicorns are just horses, you wouldnt know a superstar IT because they cant get through your paradigm.
Sounds like sour grapes, of course if your not one of them they must not exist.
The forum already has a unicorn, we also have a number of superstar ITs.
How can you work in a superstar IT hangout if you dont believe superstar ITs exist? Is it just you?
Super star ITs dont teach at ISs that have trenches.
No, its significance not semantics, vibe is reflexive, fit is ana1itical.
Your exemplar is one way of making your availability known. A superstar IT can just register with an agency and wait for the ISs to contact them. Yes recruiters pull resumes and will do 'touches' with superstar ITs.
Well you think all the unicorns are just horses, you wouldnt know a superstar IT because they cant get through your paradigm.
Sounds like sour grapes, of course if your not one of them they must not exist.
The forum already has a unicorn, we also have a number of superstar ITs.
How can you work in a superstar IT hangout if you dont believe superstar ITs exist? Is it just you?
Super star ITs dont teach at ISs that have trenches.
Re: Rockstar ITs
Dave, I love you. 4990 posts and your material is still hilarious. You remind me of an old-style Brit comedy magician called Tommy Cooper. He probably only had ten jokes in his repertoire, but he made me laugh until I cried.
Who is the mythical unicorn on the forum? Since you're only telling us the soubriquet, no harm would be done. And what about the superstars? Who are they? On the other forum, you're constantly being pressed for evidence to support your fanciful claim that ISS is still the prime recruitment agency, and you never ever do.
I know that this is part of your schtick, Dave. "Data is the only thing that counts." And yet "Data-driven Dave" never comes up with the goods when he's pushed.
Please, Dave, keep this comedy central stuff coming. And make #5000 your best ever!
Who is the mythical unicorn on the forum? Since you're only telling us the soubriquet, no harm would be done. And what about the superstars? Who are they? On the other forum, you're constantly being pressed for evidence to support your fanciful claim that ISS is still the prime recruitment agency, and you never ever do.
I know that this is part of your schtick, Dave. "Data is the only thing that counts." And yet "Data-driven Dave" never comes up with the goods when he's pushed.
Please, Dave, keep this comedy central stuff coming. And make #5000 your best ever!
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1151
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Rockstar ITs
Ad hominem attacks and calling it sour grapes isn't an argument. We are going to our dream school, and we got the job with more ease than we should have on paper, so we have no reason to be anything but happy. I don't know why it would be sour grapes that I am not something that does not exist! I mean, I guess I am also disappointed that I didn't get a Hogwarts letter, but really, the feeling is no different.
The trenches are an idiom, you know. The unicorns, if they existed, would actually teach in classrooms and have to show up to staff meetings and interact with the mere mortals. They would do so at those top schools, right? That's where unicorns are most likely to be spotted. If they exist, they would work in those places, meaning my flesh and blood friends would have met one. After all, my unbelief doesn't mean they aren't believers, and they haven't met any such people.
We had schools contacting us cold when our agency profile was active, too. That doesn't make us unicorns. Didn't you say such creatures don't use agencies because they are above them? And that top schools get 1000 applications for a job? They don't take the time to troll the candidate profiles looking for the names on an imaginary list. They want people who WANT their school, and they have 1000 flesh and blood candidates from whom to choose.
And until this thread you have pretty much always used the term fit, not vibe. But if you want to change your posts from the past, we can certainly use vibe if you like it better.
The trenches are an idiom, you know. The unicorns, if they existed, would actually teach in classrooms and have to show up to staff meetings and interact with the mere mortals. They would do so at those top schools, right? That's where unicorns are most likely to be spotted. If they exist, they would work in those places, meaning my flesh and blood friends would have met one. After all, my unbelief doesn't mean they aren't believers, and they haven't met any such people.
We had schools contacting us cold when our agency profile was active, too. That doesn't make us unicorns. Didn't you say such creatures don't use agencies because they are above them? And that top schools get 1000 applications for a job? They don't take the time to troll the candidate profiles looking for the names on an imaginary list. They want people who WANT their school, and they have 1000 flesh and blood candidates from whom to choose.
And until this thread you have pretty much always used the term fit, not vibe. But if you want to change your posts from the past, we can certainly use vibe if you like it better.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
Yes argumentum ad hominem is a valid argument and not a fallacy when related to the validity of a claim or statement (among others) that includes bias.
Again, it doesnt exist so your not being a member is irrelevant, you are free to believe whatever you want.
Superstar ITs are mortal. Superstar ITs exist. Superstar ITs conduct instruction in classrooms. Superstar ITs may or may not attend staff meetings.
Your elite tier IT associates have likely met a superstar IT, you dont know they havent, since that data doesnt pass through your paradigm.
I have previously described the general compilation of characteristics typically ascribed to superstar ITs, "cold contact" in of by itself is not sufficient.
I made no such claim or clarification, superstar ITs dont have to use agencies that doesnt mean they cant choose too for convenience or other factors.
You are correct recruiters dont review an imaginary list, their is no publication of superstar ITs that would permit perusal.
1000 applications is nothing if you have a superstar IT candidate, you easily reject the 1000 applicants. There is no requirement or mandate to review any application.
'Fit' and 'vibe' are not synonymous, I described in brief their differences in a previous reply.
Yes argumentum ad hominem is a valid argument and not a fallacy when related to the validity of a claim or statement (among others) that includes bias.
Again, it doesnt exist so your not being a member is irrelevant, you are free to believe whatever you want.
Superstar ITs are mortal. Superstar ITs exist. Superstar ITs conduct instruction in classrooms. Superstar ITs may or may not attend staff meetings.
Your elite tier IT associates have likely met a superstar IT, you dont know they havent, since that data doesnt pass through your paradigm.
I have previously described the general compilation of characteristics typically ascribed to superstar ITs, "cold contact" in of by itself is not sufficient.
I made no such claim or clarification, superstar ITs dont have to use agencies that doesnt mean they cant choose too for convenience or other factors.
You are correct recruiters dont review an imaginary list, their is no publication of superstar ITs that would permit perusal.
1000 applications is nothing if you have a superstar IT candidate, you easily reject the 1000 applicants. There is no requirement or mandate to review any application.
'Fit' and 'vibe' are not synonymous, I described in brief their differences in a previous reply.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1151
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Rockstar ITs
Ad hominem is designed to throw the other person off balance, not to make an actual claim. It's what you do when your position is weak.
I would never consider a staff member who regularly skips staff meetings as a good staff member. The arrogance of such a decision alone indicates an unwillingness to collaborate to create a more integrated educational experience. It means the teacher doesn't care about the opportunity to move a school forward, to be involved in new initiatives, or to hear how other parts of the school are functioning. Sorry, if you are skipping staff meetings, you are not a unicorn, and schools that allow such behavior regularly are schools where the convenience of a few teachers is paramount--which indicates misplaced priorities and makes the school a place where the teachers who truly care about educating kids would not want to be.
Really, all you have really described is a system of favoritism. I don't see schools passing over 1000 applicants, many of whom have all the qualifications you described--10 years, much of it in IE, curriculum, leadership, extracurriculars, special populations, proven track record of success, top notch references--in favor of hunting down another teacher with a similar CV who hasn't necessarily expressed interest in their school. That is not finding the best teachers. That is nepotism. After all, how does school X in country X know to contact teacher Y in country Y if there is no list of unicorns?
And check your post history. You used fit dozens of times, while you used vibe five, three of them in this thread, once together with the word fit, and once in a completely different context. You are the one changing the language. That's fine, but when you change the language you have always used, you can't fault me for not preempting you and for using the words you have always used and claim that I am saying something different because you changed the definitions.
You are right that I don't know every teacher that has passed through the lives of my friends. However, when I have described your unicorn, they have all scoffed at the concept.
I would never consider a staff member who regularly skips staff meetings as a good staff member. The arrogance of such a decision alone indicates an unwillingness to collaborate to create a more integrated educational experience. It means the teacher doesn't care about the opportunity to move a school forward, to be involved in new initiatives, or to hear how other parts of the school are functioning. Sorry, if you are skipping staff meetings, you are not a unicorn, and schools that allow such behavior regularly are schools where the convenience of a few teachers is paramount--which indicates misplaced priorities and makes the school a place where the teachers who truly care about educating kids would not want to be.
Really, all you have really described is a system of favoritism. I don't see schools passing over 1000 applicants, many of whom have all the qualifications you described--10 years, much of it in IE, curriculum, leadership, extracurriculars, special populations, proven track record of success, top notch references--in favor of hunting down another teacher with a similar CV who hasn't necessarily expressed interest in their school. That is not finding the best teachers. That is nepotism. After all, how does school X in country X know to contact teacher Y in country Y if there is no list of unicorns?
And check your post history. You used fit dozens of times, while you used vibe five, three of them in this thread, once together with the word fit, and once in a completely different context. You are the one changing the language. That's fine, but when you change the language you have always used, you can't fault me for not preempting you and for using the words you have always used and claim that I am saying something different because you changed the definitions.
You are right that I don't know every teacher that has passed through the lives of my friends. However, when I have described your unicorn, they have all scoffed at the concept.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Rockstar ITs
I don't believe in unicorns, because the Red Bull drove them all into the ocean where they are kept prisoner forever, until one day Schmendrick the Magician will free them.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
No they arent, Ad hominem attacks are designed to shift the subject of an attack to the character of the one making the argument as opposed to the argument. Argumentum ad hominem is an attack on the argument, in this case confirmation bias. If it "knocks you off balance" its likely indicative of a weak argument.
Your consideration of the value of an IT who does or doe not do 'X', is your opinion,
Your conjecture of arrogance is likewise on the same merits, as above your opinion.
Your implication that the IT in such a scenario is uncaring, is likewise on the merits above your opinion.
You finding that such an IT is not a superstar IT under those condition, is likewise on the merits above your opinion. It is not self authenticating and can not be established by fiat.
If an IT by action or inaction of leadership allows and or permits some subgroup of ITs to exclude themselves from such meetings or obligations are closer to being superstar ITs than those who do not have such discretion.
So what if it is a system of favoritism? Is there a point that mitigates the value of the favoritism. If favoritism has utility and exceptional favoritism has exceptional utility, does labeling it favoritism have any bearing on its value. None of the superstar ITs care what you call them.
Are you an IS or in leadership? Why would you think they dont pass up 1000 of applicants, there are ISs that post vacancies when no such vacancy exists, they just want to collect resumes, or they want to evaluate the condition of the applicant supply.
The IE community is much larger than premium agencies and databases. The group of elite ISs is a very small and intimate community. Its called a network.
Again, who cares if its nepotism? What difference does that make in any meaningful or even trivial way? If you have individual ownership of an IS and you want to put your 17 year old daughter in charge of the primary curriculum you can. What regulatory authority is there to deem otherwise.
'Fit' and 'Vibe' have different meanings they are not used interchangeably and why I use different terms when referencing different phenomenon. Its not changing its adding. Your assumption is not getting past your paradigm because you are fixated on maintaining that those terms are equivalent and used to describe the same phenomenon when they dont.
No they arent, Ad hominem attacks are designed to shift the subject of an attack to the character of the one making the argument as opposed to the argument. Argumentum ad hominem is an attack on the argument, in this case confirmation bias. If it "knocks you off balance" its likely indicative of a weak argument.
Your consideration of the value of an IT who does or doe not do 'X', is your opinion,
Your conjecture of arrogance is likewise on the same merits, as above your opinion.
Your implication that the IT in such a scenario is uncaring, is likewise on the merits above your opinion.
You finding that such an IT is not a superstar IT under those condition, is likewise on the merits above your opinion. It is not self authenticating and can not be established by fiat.
If an IT by action or inaction of leadership allows and or permits some subgroup of ITs to exclude themselves from such meetings or obligations are closer to being superstar ITs than those who do not have such discretion.
So what if it is a system of favoritism? Is there a point that mitigates the value of the favoritism. If favoritism has utility and exceptional favoritism has exceptional utility, does labeling it favoritism have any bearing on its value. None of the superstar ITs care what you call them.
Are you an IS or in leadership? Why would you think they dont pass up 1000 of applicants, there are ISs that post vacancies when no such vacancy exists, they just want to collect resumes, or they want to evaluate the condition of the applicant supply.
The IE community is much larger than premium agencies and databases. The group of elite ISs is a very small and intimate community. Its called a network.
Again, who cares if its nepotism? What difference does that make in any meaningful or even trivial way? If you have individual ownership of an IS and you want to put your 17 year old daughter in charge of the primary curriculum you can. What regulatory authority is there to deem otherwise.
'Fit' and 'Vibe' have different meanings they are not used interchangeably and why I use different terms when referencing different phenomenon. Its not changing its adding. Your assumption is not getting past your paradigm because you are fixated on maintaining that those terms are equivalent and used to describe the same phenomenon when they dont.
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Thames Pirate
- Posts: 1151
- Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:06 am
Re: Rockstar ITs
Nepotism doesn't make a great teacher. So if unicorns are just on the favorites, then why not just say that? They aren't just people with the right creds who get jobs easily, they are people who have gotten on the favorites list--for all we know by doing the right favors for smarmy directors, for example. Far cry from rockstar. Just on the list because . . . .
So unicorns are people who have gotten on the favorites list, which gets around, because they have done something favorite-worthy. Now that we have a more realistic definition, I can say it's possible such people exist, but I doubt they are at truly elite schools. Schools that hire those teachers rather than the actual best teachers are, well, not the best schools.
You have regularly said that the final F2F is about determining fit, even when referencing unicorns. Suddenly when I repeated your words, you change to vibe. That is just about arguing with me to argue. Use whatever word you want; arguing semantics is a waste of time.
So unicorns are people who have gotten on the favorites list, which gets around, because they have done something favorite-worthy. Now that we have a more realistic definition, I can say it's possible such people exist, but I doubt they are at truly elite schools. Schools that hire those teachers rather than the actual best teachers are, well, not the best schools.
You have regularly said that the final F2F is about determining fit, even when referencing unicorns. Suddenly when I repeated your words, you change to vibe. That is just about arguing with me to argue. Use whatever word you want; arguing semantics is a waste of time.
Reply
@Thames Pirate
It doe if the powers that be deem it does. How do you think you get to be a superstar IT? Though there are superstar ITs that have reputations for being difficult to work with. Many superstar ITs with their high egos are high maintenance as well.
There is no favorites list.
Yes the final F2F INTERVIEW is about determining fit. Meet and greets are less about 'fit' and more about checking your ana1ysis against your instincts for a reflexive/reactive impression. In lay terms some might call it a "gut check". The two are different, hence different terms.
It doe if the powers that be deem it does. How do you think you get to be a superstar IT? Though there are superstar ITs that have reputations for being difficult to work with. Many superstar ITs with their high egos are high maintenance as well.
There is no favorites list.
Yes the final F2F INTERVIEW is about determining fit. Meet and greets are less about 'fit' and more about checking your ana1ysis against your instincts for a reflexive/reactive impression. In lay terms some might call it a "gut check". The two are different, hence different terms.