PsyGuy,
of course I would have to back up my claim to be able to teach it with SOMETHING. I have multiple letters of reference from parents, admin, and a resume that is all over the place from grade 6 to 12. Granted I know going in I am up against people who have only taught within that subject area, and maybe the course, but if they are interviewing and asking, there is a reason behind it. It is not just filling the dance card.
Thus my advice to MizMorton. If they are asking, it is because they want to know. Of course I would have gone to brush up on the AP syllabus, just as I would for any syllabus or duties of any job I would be applying for. And of course there is no guarantee I would be hired. But I wouldn't not apply because I had never taught the course within my teaching area before.
Cambridge Diary 2015
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
Psyguy:
The only reason school heads and admin have power is because international teachers give it to them.
Here in the U.S. a high school principal rules over anywhere from 500 to 5000 students. In international ed. even at the biggest schools, a SCHOOL DIRECTOR will not work with anywhere near that number. Because they don't have the skill set or the drive or the talent to do anything beside busy work that is not important.
International school heads and admin go overseas because they cannot hack it in a system where they are not lord and master. And again, this is only possible because of majority of butt smooching, fawning sycophants that would kneel and grovel for a position.
Mizmorton:
Good for you! Don't take any job just because it is offered. Would you date any man just because he asked you out, no matter how rude or arrogant or vile he was? Of course not. That is what John Magagna wants you to do - accept any job so he can get his commission.
Work from a position of strength and be able to look at yourself in the mirror with pride and confidence and leave the butt smoochers to wallow in their lack of dignity.
The only reason school heads and admin have power is because international teachers give it to them.
Here in the U.S. a high school principal rules over anywhere from 500 to 5000 students. In international ed. even at the biggest schools, a SCHOOL DIRECTOR will not work with anywhere near that number. Because they don't have the skill set or the drive or the talent to do anything beside busy work that is not important.
International school heads and admin go overseas because they cannot hack it in a system where they are not lord and master. And again, this is only possible because of majority of butt smooching, fawning sycophants that would kneel and grovel for a position.
Mizmorton:
Good for you! Don't take any job just because it is offered. Would you date any man just because he asked you out, no matter how rude or arrogant or vile he was? Of course not. That is what John Magagna wants you to do - accept any job so he can get his commission.
Work from a position of strength and be able to look at yourself in the mirror with pride and confidence and leave the butt smoochers to wallow in their lack of dignity.
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
Thank you senator! I am not desperate. We have a good gig right now in a school we truly love, so the consolation prize isn't bad.
Re: AP-- I also didn't want to pretend I could give a job 100% if I know I'm not comfortable in that subject. I want to deliver on my promise of excellence, and I don't have the confidence for AP Physics whether they'd take me or not (I had a recruiter from Egypt ask me that, actually-- "well, COULD you teach it?"). I don't want to false-advertise. Again, I'll stay here if the right job doesn't come up. It'll happen! All up to fate.
I will add that I did apply for another job that was half in my certification, and half not, but in a subject I have a very keen personal interest. I could definitely teach that one, even with zero experience, because I love the subject.
Re: AP-- I also didn't want to pretend I could give a job 100% if I know I'm not comfortable in that subject. I want to deliver on my promise of excellence, and I don't have the confidence for AP Physics whether they'd take me or not (I had a recruiter from Egypt ask me that, actually-- "well, COULD you teach it?"). I don't want to false-advertise. Again, I'll stay here if the right job doesn't come up. It'll happen! All up to fate.
I will add that I did apply for another job that was half in my certification, and half not, but in a subject I have a very keen personal interest. I could definitely teach that one, even with zero experience, because I love the subject.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
Here in the U.S. a high school principal rules over anywhere from 500 to 5000 students. In international ed. even at the biggest schools, a SCHOOL DIRECTOR will not work with anywhere near that number.
Senator, at the large international schools, they are well within the range you mention. I am sorry that you are soured by your overseas experiences, but I can testify that not all admin are overseas "because they cannot hack it in a system where they are not lord and master...made only possible because of majority of butt smooching fawning sycophants that would kneel and grovel for a position."
Thank you for denigrating the myriad of extremely qualified international teachers I have had the privilege of working with!
shad
Senator, at the large international schools, they are well within the range you mention. I am sorry that you are soured by your overseas experiences, but I can testify that not all admin are overseas "because they cannot hack it in a system where they are not lord and master...made only possible because of majority of butt smooching fawning sycophants that would kneel and grovel for a position."
Thank you for denigrating the myriad of extremely qualified international teachers I have had the privilege of working with!
shad
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
Thanks, s.jack.
I had a bet you wouldn't let an insult to your international system pass without a comment on how wrong I am. And I have to state again, if my comments are so inaccurate, why do so many of you get so angry by them? The international system may have been great for you, but for most, it is just moving from 1 school to another, never saving much, teaching just ok students, always hoping to break into the big leagues
And there isn't a HIGH SCHOOL in the entire international education system that has 5000 students. There are very few schools that have that many students in their entire system, grades preK - 12. So if you want to continue to defend your failing system, at least report the facts accurately. There are a lot of newbies on this site who deserve the truth AND to hear from all sides.
I don't have a horse in this race, my man, unlike you. I just want all the people on this site to know what the world of most IT's is really like.
By the way, are you bucking for a job at Search Associates or ISS some day?
I had a bet you wouldn't let an insult to your international system pass without a comment on how wrong I am. And I have to state again, if my comments are so inaccurate, why do so many of you get so angry by them? The international system may have been great for you, but for most, it is just moving from 1 school to another, never saving much, teaching just ok students, always hoping to break into the big leagues
And there isn't a HIGH SCHOOL in the entire international education system that has 5000 students. There are very few schools that have that many students in their entire system, grades preK - 12. So if you want to continue to defend your failing system, at least report the facts accurately. There are a lot of newbies on this site who deserve the truth AND to hear from all sides.
I don't have a horse in this race, my man, unlike you. I just want all the people on this site to know what the world of most IT's is really like.
By the way, are you bucking for a job at Search Associates or ISS some day?
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
senator wrote:
> Thanks, s.jack.
>
> I had a bet you wouldn't let an insult to your international system pass
> without a comment on how wrong I am. And I have to state again, if my
> comments are so inaccurate, why do so many of you get so angry by them?
mostly because it seems you are intentionally trolling.
if you offered actual constructive criticism or advice that wasn't so obviously biased, no one would mind i'm sure.
everyone knows the IT environment isn't flawless but you can say that about any industry.
moving from school to school is part of the appeal of the life of teaching internationally.
how would you know what "most" is? where are your stats?
i don't know what the motivations of teachers are, but for me, the glut of teachers back home and mandatory, indefinite time on a supply list is why i teach internationally. also, i love to travel, and so does my wife. we save a nice chunk each year and save for our child. i would guess the same motivations exist for a lot of teachers.
we haven't worked in "the big leagues" but we don't feel a need to because as long as we are compensated appropriately and are happy, the "big leagues" is a state of mind.
v.
> Thanks, s.jack.
>
> I had a bet you wouldn't let an insult to your international system pass
> without a comment on how wrong I am. And I have to state again, if my
> comments are so inaccurate, why do so many of you get so angry by them?
mostly because it seems you are intentionally trolling.
if you offered actual constructive criticism or advice that wasn't so obviously biased, no one would mind i'm sure.
everyone knows the IT environment isn't flawless but you can say that about any industry.
moving from school to school is part of the appeal of the life of teaching internationally.
how would you know what "most" is? where are your stats?
i don't know what the motivations of teachers are, but for me, the glut of teachers back home and mandatory, indefinite time on a supply list is why i teach internationally. also, i love to travel, and so does my wife. we save a nice chunk each year and save for our child. i would guess the same motivations exist for a lot of teachers.
we haven't worked in "the big leagues" but we don't feel a need to because as long as we are compensated appropriately and are happy, the "big leagues" is a state of mind.
v.
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shadowjack
- Posts: 2140
- Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:49 am
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
Hmmm...please point out my anger? I merely use logic to point out that what you say has some inaccuracies. I don't globalize by saying that ALL heads are angels - there are certainly some I would never work under - but you seem to have a black and white view of the world with no greys at all. As to your 5,000 student comment, you used a range of 500 - 5,000 students. I commented that I knew of lots of international schools WITHIN THAT RANGE. Then all of a sudden you jump to only mentioning systems with 5,000 students and state that there aren't international schools that have that number of students in their system.
Guess what? I admit defeat. You are right. There ARE no IS systems with 5,000 students K to 12. Heck, even adding in Pre-K numbers wouldn't help. In fact, even if we lump in those Head Start kids, no IS will be remotely close to 5,000 students. I think the most populous would top out around 3,000 +/-. So yes, you are absolutely right. I validate your argument that IS don't have 5,000 students in any IS school system in the world.
I see you come again to most IS are dumps where people just shuffle around from place to place. You may be right on that. It certainly seems to be your experience, which you validate. However true your reality might be, I know lots of teachers who have a very different experience on the circuit and whose experiences seem to validate mine. I am also sure that there are many teachers whose experience is in between.
In the end, I find international teaching is what you make of it. If you don't strive to improve your practice and hone it constantly, if you don't keep up with trends in education and are not best practice driven, if you don't educate yourself about the schools, admins and locales out there, yes, you might have a bad experience. And yes, even that is no guarantee that the "great school" you are going to is great for you. Fortunately many of my colleagues and myself have had that experience.
But for you to state that this is "what the world of most IT's is really like" is stretching it a bit far.
I don't have a horse in this race either. I have been fortunate enough to find decent jobs all over the world at decent schools. I have been fortunate enough to save some $$$. I have been fortunate enough to have avoided toxic admin. But I know lots of teachers like that.
Between you and I, teachers have a view of the up and down sides of international education :-)
Guess what? I admit defeat. You are right. There ARE no IS systems with 5,000 students K to 12. Heck, even adding in Pre-K numbers wouldn't help. In fact, even if we lump in those Head Start kids, no IS will be remotely close to 5,000 students. I think the most populous would top out around 3,000 +/-. So yes, you are absolutely right. I validate your argument that IS don't have 5,000 students in any IS school system in the world.
I see you come again to most IS are dumps where people just shuffle around from place to place. You may be right on that. It certainly seems to be your experience, which you validate. However true your reality might be, I know lots of teachers who have a very different experience on the circuit and whose experiences seem to validate mine. I am also sure that there are many teachers whose experience is in between.
In the end, I find international teaching is what you make of it. If you don't strive to improve your practice and hone it constantly, if you don't keep up with trends in education and are not best practice driven, if you don't educate yourself about the schools, admins and locales out there, yes, you might have a bad experience. And yes, even that is no guarantee that the "great school" you are going to is great for you. Fortunately many of my colleagues and myself have had that experience.
But for you to state that this is "what the world of most IT's is really like" is stretching it a bit far.
I don't have a horse in this race either. I have been fortunate enough to find decent jobs all over the world at decent schools. I have been fortunate enough to save some $$$. I have been fortunate enough to have avoided toxic admin. But I know lots of teachers like that.
Between you and I, teachers have a view of the up and down sides of international education :-)
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
senator wrote:
> Thanks, s.jack.
>
> I had a bet you wouldn't let an insult to your international system pass
> without a comment on how wrong I am. And I have to state again, if my
> comments are so inaccurate, why do so many of you get so angry by them? The
> international system may have been great for you, but for most, it is just
> moving from 1 school to another, never saving much, teaching just ok
> students, always hoping to break into the big leagues
---------------------------------------
You really seem to harp on that comment time and again. Can''t you see that it really makes little sense? I'm certain there are many things that someone could say or imply about you, your profession, family, favorite sports team or other organization that you would respond strongly to, precisely because it wasn't true, or it wasn't really their place to comment or be so tactless.
It seems a very simple point that you are failing to grasp.
> Thanks, s.jack.
>
> I had a bet you wouldn't let an insult to your international system pass
> without a comment on how wrong I am. And I have to state again, if my
> comments are so inaccurate, why do so many of you get so angry by them? The
> international system may have been great for you, but for most, it is just
> moving from 1 school to another, never saving much, teaching just ok
> students, always hoping to break into the big leagues
---------------------------------------
You really seem to harp on that comment time and again. Can''t you see that it really makes little sense? I'm certain there are many things that someone could say or imply about you, your profession, family, favorite sports team or other organization that you would respond strongly to, precisely because it wasn't true, or it wasn't really their place to comment or be so tactless.
It seems a very simple point that you are failing to grasp.
Discussion
@MizMorton
Passion does not equal expertise or proficiency. I know teachers who are well thought of, and greatly liked by their students, admin, colleagues, and parents, but their students do not perform. Likewise, I know great scholars and researchers who are masters of their field, who can not transfer knowledge.
@shadowjack
There is already a document that supports your claims its externally recognized and authenticated, its called certification. Which in your AP case you can not possibly have any authentication or support, as you acknowledged int he previous post that you have no experience teaching an AP course, so you have no evidence to support that claim as none exists. You can not self qualify expertise in the absence of data.
My concern at this point is how much of your resume is self proclaimed and how much is externally verifiable. How much of it reflects actual accomplishments and expertise and how much of it is extrapolated.
The reason they are interviewing is to share information, both them as a school and you as an educator, it isnt to see how far you can stretch and bend your resume to fit the vacancy. This is the difference between data representation and data manipulation. I am not opposed to the latter, but I know full well when I am doing so, as opposed to the former in convincing myself that the prediction is actuality.
There is nothing wrong in applying for a vacancy with an absence of experience, the problem is representing professional capabilities by extrapolation.
@senator
NO the reason why HOS and admins have power is because ownership gives it to them. Teachers are a functional component of the school, the school is not a collective of its staff. ISs are not the Borg.
Yes they do, SAS has about 1,191 students in its HS, well within your range of 500-5000; SAS has 3,934 students school wide, which puts them in the top 40 of the largest schools in the US. Thats by my definition close to 5,000, of which only SEVEN schools in the US have enrollments of 5,000 or more.
@vandsmith
Senator is an experienced ITe, they have been a contributor to the forum for a number of years. This forum isnt an "Ask Abby" blog, or a FAQ, its what we as members make it, and then means going to uncomfortable places at times. This isnt a democracy where what people mind matters, this is a forum, sometimes it reflects that of the roman senate and sometimes the coliseum, where we duel out issues, and sometimes its messy, and sometimes even bloody, and full of venom, but thats the reality of life, and how the collaborative process works.
Thats are very admirable position to have, but those are your experiences, and the position of others is formed by their experience, which is no its no less/more valid or right/wrong than anyone else.
@shadowjack
City Montessori School in India has a total enrollment of over 47,000 students the senior school is well over 5,000 students. The school is a private school and has no policy restricting foreign student applicants.
@wrldtrvlr123
I believe senator grasps the point, it makes sense to senator, and communication however abrasive or rough others may find it, is how we build understanding. Where is the wrong place, where is the right place. As ITs this is really our first and last forum of freedom. Some people want a sophisticated classy roof top hotel lounge, some people want a dirty, rough and tumble, Catina full of rogues and warm warm brew. No one has to read this forum and no one has to contribute, we welcome everyone.
I will always prefer tactlessness over silence.
Passion does not equal expertise or proficiency. I know teachers who are well thought of, and greatly liked by their students, admin, colleagues, and parents, but their students do not perform. Likewise, I know great scholars and researchers who are masters of their field, who can not transfer knowledge.
@shadowjack
There is already a document that supports your claims its externally recognized and authenticated, its called certification. Which in your AP case you can not possibly have any authentication or support, as you acknowledged int he previous post that you have no experience teaching an AP course, so you have no evidence to support that claim as none exists. You can not self qualify expertise in the absence of data.
My concern at this point is how much of your resume is self proclaimed and how much is externally verifiable. How much of it reflects actual accomplishments and expertise and how much of it is extrapolated.
The reason they are interviewing is to share information, both them as a school and you as an educator, it isnt to see how far you can stretch and bend your resume to fit the vacancy. This is the difference between data representation and data manipulation. I am not opposed to the latter, but I know full well when I am doing so, as opposed to the former in convincing myself that the prediction is actuality.
There is nothing wrong in applying for a vacancy with an absence of experience, the problem is representing professional capabilities by extrapolation.
@senator
NO the reason why HOS and admins have power is because ownership gives it to them. Teachers are a functional component of the school, the school is not a collective of its staff. ISs are not the Borg.
Yes they do, SAS has about 1,191 students in its HS, well within your range of 500-5000; SAS has 3,934 students school wide, which puts them in the top 40 of the largest schools in the US. Thats by my definition close to 5,000, of which only SEVEN schools in the US have enrollments of 5,000 or more.
@vandsmith
Senator is an experienced ITe, they have been a contributor to the forum for a number of years. This forum isnt an "Ask Abby" blog, or a FAQ, its what we as members make it, and then means going to uncomfortable places at times. This isnt a democracy where what people mind matters, this is a forum, sometimes it reflects that of the roman senate and sometimes the coliseum, where we duel out issues, and sometimes its messy, and sometimes even bloody, and full of venom, but thats the reality of life, and how the collaborative process works.
Thats are very admirable position to have, but those are your experiences, and the position of others is formed by their experience, which is no its no less/more valid or right/wrong than anyone else.
@shadowjack
City Montessori School in India has a total enrollment of over 47,000 students the senior school is well over 5,000 students. The school is a private school and has no policy restricting foreign student applicants.
@wrldtrvlr123
I believe senator grasps the point, it makes sense to senator, and communication however abrasive or rough others may find it, is how we build understanding. Where is the wrong place, where is the right place. As ITs this is really our first and last forum of freedom. Some people want a sophisticated classy roof top hotel lounge, some people want a dirty, rough and tumble, Catina full of rogues and warm warm brew. No one has to read this forum and no one has to contribute, we welcome everyone.
I will always prefer tactlessness over silence.
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
@PsyGuy
i can live with that, and i prefer that way in fact.
if it's okay for one it's okay for others. i was simply stating what i thought about the situation,
and how it is formed by my experience.
point taken.
v.
i can live with that, and i prefer that way in fact.
if it's okay for one it's okay for others. i was simply stating what i thought about the situation,
and how it is formed by my experience.
point taken.
v.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Discussion
> @wrldtrvlr123
>
> I believe senator grasps the point, it makes sense to senator, and
> communication however abrasive or rough others may find it, is how we build
> understanding. Where is the wrong place, where is the right place. As ITs
> this is really our first and last forum of freedom. Some people want a
> sophisticated classy roof top hotel lounge, some people want a dirty,
> rough and tumble, Catina full of rogues and warm warm brew. No one has to
> read this forum and no one has to contribute, we welcome everyone.
>
-------------------------------
Well, obviously he doesn't or he wouldn't keep saying it. If someone calls a person _______________ (nazi, pedophile, ManU fan) and that person gets angry/upset, does that mean it must be true, because otherwise the person wouldn't be getting upset? That's troll logic.
BTW. I don't recall anyone asking for Senator or anyone else (except maybe you :P) not to have the right to post here. We are disagreeing with him and calling him out on illogical/lazy thinking and negative over generalizations. Now that you mention it, I can see why you would jump to his defense (when none is required). J/K. Kind of.
>
> I believe senator grasps the point, it makes sense to senator, and
> communication however abrasive or rough others may find it, is how we build
> understanding. Where is the wrong place, where is the right place. As ITs
> this is really our first and last forum of freedom. Some people want a
> sophisticated classy roof top hotel lounge, some people want a dirty,
> rough and tumble, Catina full of rogues and warm warm brew. No one has to
> read this forum and no one has to contribute, we welcome everyone.
>
-------------------------------
Well, obviously he doesn't or he wouldn't keep saying it. If someone calls a person _______________ (nazi, pedophile, ManU fan) and that person gets angry/upset, does that mean it must be true, because otherwise the person wouldn't be getting upset? That's troll logic.
BTW. I don't recall anyone asking for Senator or anyone else (except maybe you :P) not to have the right to post here. We are disagreeing with him and calling him out on illogical/lazy thinking and negative over generalizations. Now that you mention it, I can see why you would jump to his defense (when none is required). J/K. Kind of.
Reply
@wrldtrvlr123
Obviously he does and his expression is a manifestation of his experience, and while you dont share that experience, and you may grow frustrated from it, makes it no less valid or logical to them. There is nothing wrong with negative (or positive) over generalization, some events and phenomenon are very general, and while one perception of the IE world is small, its not unreasonable to generalize ones individual experience. Your position seems to be that because one contributors experience is ina perceived minority that its expression should be limited, and that having expressed it, youve had enough.
I have never expressed that anyone (even the League of PsGuy Nemesis) not contribute, I often write that we need more not fewer voices on this forum.
Obviously he does and his expression is a manifestation of his experience, and while you dont share that experience, and you may grow frustrated from it, makes it no less valid or logical to them. There is nothing wrong with negative (or positive) over generalization, some events and phenomenon are very general, and while one perception of the IE world is small, its not unreasonable to generalize ones individual experience. Your position seems to be that because one contributors experience is ina perceived minority that its expression should be limited, and that having expressed it, youve had enough.
I have never expressed that anyone (even the League of PsGuy Nemesis) not contribute, I often write that we need more not fewer voices on this forum.
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Climberman
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:29 pm
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
I have to defend senator. Even though he is abrasive and his comments go a bit far, I appreciate it that he points out the negatives of the IT world and I agree with many of these.
I actually find him less abrasive than others on this site - many of whom have just grouped together to criticize him.
I just finished the Cambridge fair and received - again - no interviews, though I have 8 years of IB Math HL an SL, MYP, TOK experience at schools in Asia and, according to my Search associate, my references are fine.
So, I am just starting to see things from the other side of the fence and can appreciate senator's views a bit more now than I did a year ago - though he could be less confrontational.
I actually find him less abrasive than others on this site - many of whom have just grouped together to criticize him.
I just finished the Cambridge fair and received - again - no interviews, though I have 8 years of IB Math HL an SL, MYP, TOK experience at schools in Asia and, according to my Search associate, my references are fine.
So, I am just starting to see things from the other side of the fence and can appreciate senator's views a bit more now than I did a year ago - though he could be less confrontational.
Discussion
@Climberman
Whats wrong with you, what are you hiding? How many dependents do you have? Are you disabled? That doesnt happen without a reason.
Whats wrong with you, what are you hiding? How many dependents do you have? Are you disabled? That doesnt happen without a reason.
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wrldtrvlr123
- Posts: 1173
- Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 10:59 am
- Location: Japan
Re: Cambridge Diary 2015
Climberman wrote:
> I have to defend senator. Even though he is abrasive and his comments go a bit far,
> I appreciate it that he points out the negatives of the IT world and I agree with
> many of these.
>
> I actually find him less abrasive than others on this site - many of whom have just
> grouped together to criticize him.
>
> I just finished the Cambridge fair and received - again - no interviews, though I
> have 8 years of IB Math HL an SL, MYP, TOK experience at schools in Asia and, according
> to my Search associate, my references are fine.
>
> So, I am just starting to see things from the other side of the fence and can appreciate
> senator's views a bit more now than I did a year ago - though he could be less confrontational.
---------------------------------
Wow. You must be a ______________________ (see earlier post). You mad, bro? Don't be, otherwise wise I'll know it's true.
That's all I'm saying. Sorry to hear about your experience at the fair though. As I've posted before we're only 1 for 3 at job fairs and it can be a very humbling and disconcerting experience. Good luck with future applications as they admin like to say.
> I have to defend senator. Even though he is abrasive and his comments go a bit far,
> I appreciate it that he points out the negatives of the IT world and I agree with
> many of these.
>
> I actually find him less abrasive than others on this site - many of whom have just
> grouped together to criticize him.
>
> I just finished the Cambridge fair and received - again - no interviews, though I
> have 8 years of IB Math HL an SL, MYP, TOK experience at schools in Asia and, according
> to my Search associate, my references are fine.
>
> So, I am just starting to see things from the other side of the fence and can appreciate
> senator's views a bit more now than I did a year ago - though he could be less confrontational.
---------------------------------
Wow. You must be a ______________________ (see earlier post). You mad, bro? Don't be, otherwise wise I'll know it's true.
That's all I'm saying. Sorry to hear about your experience at the fair though. As I've posted before we're only 1 for 3 at job fairs and it can be a very humbling and disconcerting experience. Good luck with future applications as they admin like to say.