well I may be a college graduate but it appears I don't know the difference between 'too' and 'to'...that mistake is really going to annoy me now!
specialed I completely agree with you about the specific attacks on people. not called for.
I guess what people need to keep in mind is that there is no perfect school. And, what another person hates might be perfect for you. BUT, on the other hand if a school has 10 reviews saying that it is hell on earth then you might want to consider whether it is somewhere you want to spend the next 2 years of your life. For me personally when I read the reviews I try to sift through and work out what the main complaints are. If they are things like accomodations being substandard, wages not being paid then that is a huge red flag. If it is just one person disliking a management style then that is less of a concern.
New subscriber: why is this website so negative???
"well I may be a college graduate but it appears I don't know the difference between 'too' and 'to'...that mistake is really going to annoy me now!"
If that's the only spelling/grammatical mistake I make, I would be jumping for joy. I cannot type on a keyboard without making spelling errors or having strange sounding sentences.
I totally agree with what you are saying. It sounds reasonable to me. What does not sound reasonable is the negative personal attacks and the dog- piling I see sometimes with respect to some of the reviews. Please, if you are going to write a review, be civil. Say what you need to say without attacking someone and mentioning names. If someone really wants to find out who the bad director is, they can easily find out. I wouldn't want a pissed off administrator putting my name on a web page. They could feel free to say I was a scumbag on a reference, but not in a public forum!
If that's the only spelling/grammatical mistake I make, I would be jumping for joy. I cannot type on a keyboard without making spelling errors or having strange sounding sentences.
I totally agree with what you are saying. It sounds reasonable to me. What does not sound reasonable is the negative personal attacks and the dog- piling I see sometimes with respect to some of the reviews. Please, if you are going to write a review, be civil. Say what you need to say without attacking someone and mentioning names. If someone really wants to find out who the bad director is, they can easily find out. I wouldn't want a pissed off administrator putting my name on a web page. They could feel free to say I was a scumbag on a reference, but not in a public forum!
Retirement and residency
As someone who had folks that taught overseas for nearly 20 years, retirement is an overlooked necessity. I now have friends who can retire at full teacher pension at 55 after putting in 30 years of state side teaching. Not to say that you don't teach overseas, but my folks are teaching at 70 in the States because they have to build up enough years. I've not got 9 years State side teaching, and when I consider going back overseas, I know I'm just adding on years if I intend on coming back, teaching and expecting retirement. If my family goes over again, saving for retirement will be a priority.
Additionally, when I went to college, since my folks were still overseas, no matter where I went, I was out of state. While the difference between in state and out is narrowing, its still substantial.
Additionally, when I went to college, since my folks were still overseas, no matter where I went, I was out of state. While the difference between in state and out is narrowing, its still substantial.
"I still recommend overseas teaching but the gap between the stateside salaries and overseas is less. Just make sure you plan for retirement early. "
Oh my goodness. I decided to do one of those Social Security checks to see how much I would get for retirement - it was something like $450 a month! I almost cried. I immediately talked with the Zurich financial person that deals with our school and had him take out $700 a month so I could actually have some sort of retirement. RobSg you are so right. I wish I could go back in time and kick myself for not putting more money away.
Thanks for some of the best advice on this forum!!!!
Oh my goodness. I decided to do one of those Social Security checks to see how much I would get for retirement - it was something like $450 a month! I almost cried. I immediately talked with the Zurich financial person that deals with our school and had him take out $700 a month so I could actually have some sort of retirement. RobSg you are so right. I wish I could go back in time and kick myself for not putting more money away.
Thanks for some of the best advice on this forum!!!!
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E.B. White
- Posts: 45
- Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:41 am
- Location: International School, South America
negativity
Many excellent points here already - particularly from interteach and jtf. (Although I would not advocate for initial contracts longer than two years, I agree with the reasoning behind it...)
My spouse and I signed contracts in February that had ISR reviews all over the place, but we did read between the lines; we think we read things right, but will have to wait to find out. We thought our current positions would be better than they turned out to be, but so much where we are now is just superficial dog and pony show p.r. crap. We made a commitment to not even think about going to a school that spoke of itself in unrelenting superlatives; we want to go where we are needed and where we can make a difference, not just be part of the window dressing.
From my perspective, having taught in many schools in the U.S. and abroad, most teachers do not complain much, speak up publicly much, or want to ruffle feathers much. Those of us who do make the others very nervous and we are accused of being unprofessional or worse. The same is true with many of the respondents on this website, I believe. This is a profession I commited to many, many years ago - and I would have had to be insane to have gone into it simply to be critical of it. When I am critical (and geez, that's just not that bad a word) it is to effect change - even if it is just to point out that there is more than one way of perceiving something. Many schools - not just international schools - do not want to acknowledge that there is more than one way to look at anything. At an international school, that frequently makes for some understandably surreal situations.
This is far more complex than mere happiness or unhappiness. And please do not reduce it to being irate or disgruntled, any more than you would suggest constipation as a reason. The profession's long civil servant history and mentality, the historical relationship between expatriate teachers and missionaries, and the fact that we work with children (and most of my career is as an elementary teacher, and we are the WORST - just always, always, always NICE) - make for this long-running dissonant kind of thing going on here. In the States, I was a union president and chief negotiator in an area where teachers were the only unionized group for a hundred miles - talk about surreal - talk about constantly hearing and feeling you weren't supposed to act or talk a certain way! To me, sometimes, reading the entries here is kind of like going to a union meeting (certainly not a faculty meeting, because we are all unfailingly nice at them) - but a union of people all over the world. And, as had been said, if you do not like what is here, guess what - don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I have tried to be positive and professional in all my postings. I cannot and will not promise to be unrelentingly positive - to what end?
I have been a teacher for 21 years, plus ten years in education outisde the classroom (NOT as an administrator...nonprofits!) I have never been in a perfect school and doubt very much I will - but all in all, I would not trade my experiences for anything - and I have had some amazingly wonderful ones, and some unbelievably disappointing ones. I reserve the right to exalt in the former and be pissed as hell about the latter.
My spouse and I signed contracts in February that had ISR reviews all over the place, but we did read between the lines; we think we read things right, but will have to wait to find out. We thought our current positions would be better than they turned out to be, but so much where we are now is just superficial dog and pony show p.r. crap. We made a commitment to not even think about going to a school that spoke of itself in unrelenting superlatives; we want to go where we are needed and where we can make a difference, not just be part of the window dressing.
From my perspective, having taught in many schools in the U.S. and abroad, most teachers do not complain much, speak up publicly much, or want to ruffle feathers much. Those of us who do make the others very nervous and we are accused of being unprofessional or worse. The same is true with many of the respondents on this website, I believe. This is a profession I commited to many, many years ago - and I would have had to be insane to have gone into it simply to be critical of it. When I am critical (and geez, that's just not that bad a word) it is to effect change - even if it is just to point out that there is more than one way of perceiving something. Many schools - not just international schools - do not want to acknowledge that there is more than one way to look at anything. At an international school, that frequently makes for some understandably surreal situations.
This is far more complex than mere happiness or unhappiness. And please do not reduce it to being irate or disgruntled, any more than you would suggest constipation as a reason. The profession's long civil servant history and mentality, the historical relationship between expatriate teachers and missionaries, and the fact that we work with children (and most of my career is as an elementary teacher, and we are the WORST - just always, always, always NICE) - make for this long-running dissonant kind of thing going on here. In the States, I was a union president and chief negotiator in an area where teachers were the only unionized group for a hundred miles - talk about surreal - talk about constantly hearing and feeling you weren't supposed to act or talk a certain way! To me, sometimes, reading the entries here is kind of like going to a union meeting (certainly not a faculty meeting, because we are all unfailingly nice at them) - but a union of people all over the world. And, as had been said, if you do not like what is here, guess what - don't let the door hit you on the way out.
I have tried to be positive and professional in all my postings. I cannot and will not promise to be unrelentingly positive - to what end?
I have been a teacher for 21 years, plus ten years in education outisde the classroom (NOT as an administrator...nonprofits!) I have never been in a perfect school and doubt very much I will - but all in all, I would not trade my experiences for anything - and I have had some amazingly wonderful ones, and some unbelievably disappointing ones. I reserve the right to exalt in the former and be pissed as hell about the latter.
"I have tried to be positive and professional in all my postings. I cannot and will not promise to be unrelentingly positive - to what end?"
Who is asking you to make that promise? I have yet to read a single post where someone is asking this or advocating the idea. What I am saying/asking is that people be civil, and try to present their experience in a balanced way. If someone has a bad experience, I would like to know so I can make an informed choice about a school. I would also like to know about good experiences as well! What doesn't help are these rants and raves about how evil the whole establishment is and how the director is an ________ (pick a name). I don't see this as some big conspiracy as others have. Like you said E.B., posting the good and bad sounds to me like a more "critical" review that is helpful. Those kinds of reviews help me. Rants, raves, and personal attacks don't help at all. You spoke of working for the teacher union back home. Did you launch into personal attacks on administrators and other teachers, or did you stick to the facts? The key word you used was an excellent choice - you said you tried to be "professional" in your postings. Who could ask for more? I sure can't! You also used the word "critical" and that too is what I am asking for. Critical means to really examine the situation, both good and bad. There may be cases where there is more bad than good. Great, post your results! To truly be critical is good, slamming people is not helpful.
Who is asking you to make that promise? I have yet to read a single post where someone is asking this or advocating the idea. What I am saying/asking is that people be civil, and try to present their experience in a balanced way. If someone has a bad experience, I would like to know so I can make an informed choice about a school. I would also like to know about good experiences as well! What doesn't help are these rants and raves about how evil the whole establishment is and how the director is an ________ (pick a name). I don't see this as some big conspiracy as others have. Like you said E.B., posting the good and bad sounds to me like a more "critical" review that is helpful. Those kinds of reviews help me. Rants, raves, and personal attacks don't help at all. You spoke of working for the teacher union back home. Did you launch into personal attacks on administrators and other teachers, or did you stick to the facts? The key word you used was an excellent choice - you said you tried to be "professional" in your postings. Who could ask for more? I sure can't! You also used the word "critical" and that too is what I am asking for. Critical means to really examine the situation, both good and bad. There may be cases where there is more bad than good. Great, post your results! To truly be critical is good, slamming people is not helpful.
Not the great deal it once was.
As an international teacher who has finally had enough and is returning to the U.S in June, let me state a few facts:
1. MOST - not all - of the internationals are in the poor to mediocre range
2. The majority of international administrators could not maintain employment in the U.S. public school system as they cannot handle dealing with unions, a wide and large parent community, a large budget. For example, the "great" Dennis Larkin of Shanghai American School only has to deal with around 3000 students total. That was how many students attended the last public high school I taught at. Most international schools have far fewer students than SAS.
3. The majority of international teachers fall into 2 categories: superteachers who don't have any other life outside of school and incompetents who cannot make it in their own countries for a variety of reasons. This results in members of both these categories wanting to stay at their schools and in the international system so badly that they NEVER speak out about anything, resulting in even more power for ignorant and corrupt administrators.
International teaching is no longer the great deal it once was and the system is declining every year in that the playing field is continually shifting more and more toward admin and away from teachers.
1. MOST - not all - of the internationals are in the poor to mediocre range
2. The majority of international administrators could not maintain employment in the U.S. public school system as they cannot handle dealing with unions, a wide and large parent community, a large budget. For example, the "great" Dennis Larkin of Shanghai American School only has to deal with around 3000 students total. That was how many students attended the last public high school I taught at. Most international schools have far fewer students than SAS.
3. The majority of international teachers fall into 2 categories: superteachers who don't have any other life outside of school and incompetents who cannot make it in their own countries for a variety of reasons. This results in members of both these categories wanting to stay at their schools and in the international system so badly that they NEVER speak out about anything, resulting in even more power for ignorant and corrupt administrators.
International teaching is no longer the great deal it once was and the system is declining every year in that the playing field is continually shifting more and more toward admin and away from teachers.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence, and from what I hear up to 80,000 California teachers may have more time to watch their grass grow as the California education system implodes. Every school and district that I have worked for, both in Canada and overseas has had issues, including SAS. Though today I saw our administrator take a step I didn't think he could take and it renewed my confidence in the school.
I doubt that I have ever met you Senator and I don't believe you can tell what type of teacher either my wife or I are. I don't believe we are Superteachers without lives outside of schools but I also don't believe that I am an incompetent teacher either. I have met many fine teachers in my career that don't fit either description and for you to label the "majority" of teachers this way is unfair and just plain silly.
Its just as silly to say that "MOST" international schools are mediocre or poor. Again, have you worked at "MOST" international schools, I doubt it? I have worked at 3 different International schools and while one could improve we were and are thrilled with the education our children have and are receiving.
Finally, your last point. Have you ever worked in North America? I have, and believe me administrators in North America are no better or worse than the administrators I have worked for overseas.
I wish you luck in your return to the United States and hope you find the nirvana you are obviously seeking. As for my wife and I, well we will continue to suffer in our overseas posting.
I doubt that I have ever met you Senator and I don't believe you can tell what type of teacher either my wife or I are. I don't believe we are Superteachers without lives outside of schools but I also don't believe that I am an incompetent teacher either. I have met many fine teachers in my career that don't fit either description and for you to label the "majority" of teachers this way is unfair and just plain silly.
Its just as silly to say that "MOST" international schools are mediocre or poor. Again, have you worked at "MOST" international schools, I doubt it? I have worked at 3 different International schools and while one could improve we were and are thrilled with the education our children have and are receiving.
Finally, your last point. Have you ever worked in North America? I have, and believe me administrators in North America are no better or worse than the administrators I have worked for overseas.
I wish you luck in your return to the United States and hope you find the nirvana you are obviously seeking. As for my wife and I, well we will continue to suffer in our overseas posting.
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mishmumkin
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:25 pm
Re: New subscriber: why is this website so negative???
[b][quote]I don't want to come off ignorant or as a know it all because neither is a trait that I ascribe to, but since visiting this site I have begun questioning whether international teaching is all it is cracked up to be. Now, maybe it is the fact that this site offers real advice that no other sites do offer, but I swear I cannot find a consistently positive thread in this entire website. I know that everyone experiences things differently, but all this negativity does not put a good face on international schools. Why is it the case? What is going on here? I am sure there are other posts on this. Can anyone give me any quality feedback? Thanks[/quote][/b]
Bad news travels fast. People who really love their job don't often take time to spread the word to their peers. People who've been screwed, however, want to get the word out. Disgruntled employees also tend frequent sites like this.
Bad news travels fast. People who really love their job don't often take time to spread the word to their peers. People who've been screwed, however, want to get the word out. Disgruntled employees also tend frequent sites like this.
congratulations...
Congratulations Senator. That has got to be one of the least intelligent postings on the board.
But then I guess I must be incompetant since I'm certainly not fitting your definition of a superteacher so I'm sure it won't bother you to hear me say that.
While I agree that SOME schools are poor - mediocre (as are some teachers) there are plenty of good schools out there as well and I think anyone who wants to try international teaching shouldn't be put off by your sweeping generalisations.
I'm not American but I suspect there are plenty of poor - mediocre schools there too. And an awful lot of behaviour problems to boot. Good luck with your move back there. I think International Teaching is still a pretty great deal. I get to live in other countries, do a job I enjoy with great students (compared to your average school at home) and have good holidays to travel. I may not make my fortune but that was not the reason I became a teacher.
But then I guess I must be incompetant since I'm certainly not fitting your definition of a superteacher so I'm sure it won't bother you to hear me say that.
While I agree that SOME schools are poor - mediocre (as are some teachers) there are plenty of good schools out there as well and I think anyone who wants to try international teaching shouldn't be put off by your sweeping generalisations.
I'm not American but I suspect there are plenty of poor - mediocre schools there too. And an awful lot of behaviour problems to boot. Good luck with your move back there. I think International Teaching is still a pretty great deal. I get to live in other countries, do a job I enjoy with great students (compared to your average school at home) and have good holidays to travel. I may not make my fortune but that was not the reason I became a teacher.
Only you would know whether or not you are incompetent. You do seem to fall into that other category of international school teachers: apologists for the system.
Saying "all schools have problems" or "no school is nirvana" is just a person's way of justifying his/her lack of courage in striving to make positive changes within that system.
The sad truth is that it is not only incompetent administration that is responsible, it is the scared and frightened teachers who are content to stick their heads in the sand, collect their salaries (rent included, of course, maybe even tax free) and allow such a corrupt system to flourish.
Read the postings on this site. Has it ever occurred to you that the single main reason why the negative ones outnumber the positive ones is because MOST international school teachers have not had many positive experiences at their schools?
Saying "all schools have problems" or "no school is nirvana" is just a person's way of justifying his/her lack of courage in striving to make positive changes within that system.
The sad truth is that it is not only incompetent administration that is responsible, it is the scared and frightened teachers who are content to stick their heads in the sand, collect their salaries (rent included, of course, maybe even tax free) and allow such a corrupt system to flourish.
Read the postings on this site. Has it ever occurred to you that the single main reason why the negative ones outnumber the positive ones is because MOST international school teachers have not had many positive experiences at their schools?
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Traveller1
- Posts: 93
- Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 11:18 pm
Senator I'm not quite sure you've got it quite right by saying "MOST international school teachers have not had many positive experiences at their schools".
I don't think we hear from the top tier international schools because they really have very little to complain about. Anyone here from Jakarta IS, or Vienna IS, or Southbank in London or the American School in London, or Anglo-American in Moscow?
I haven't worked in any top-tier schools but I've had some fantastic experiences. The positives far outweigh the negatives in my experience. In fact, I'm at a school that is part of an organisation that has had some terrible reviews on ISR but I'm feeling more fulfilled in my classroom at the moment than I have for years.
Many teachers that I know are not crusaders out to put the world of international education right. They're happy doing what they do best, teaching. Only they're in an international context rather than at home.
I also have to agree with Overhere, and not just about the US. Many teachers have left their national education system because amongst other things they are overly bureacratic, there is way too much red tape, and class sizes are far larger than on the international circuit.
I'd also say that your categorisation of teachers as either being super teachers or incompetents is way too simplistic. I don't have the time or inclination to list them but there are probably at least 50 variables that affect teachers and their practice.
I don't think we hear from the top tier international schools because they really have very little to complain about. Anyone here from Jakarta IS, or Vienna IS, or Southbank in London or the American School in London, or Anglo-American in Moscow?
I haven't worked in any top-tier schools but I've had some fantastic experiences. The positives far outweigh the negatives in my experience. In fact, I'm at a school that is part of an organisation that has had some terrible reviews on ISR but I'm feeling more fulfilled in my classroom at the moment than I have for years.
Many teachers that I know are not crusaders out to put the world of international education right. They're happy doing what they do best, teaching. Only they're in an international context rather than at home.
I also have to agree with Overhere, and not just about the US. Many teachers have left their national education system because amongst other things they are overly bureacratic, there is way too much red tape, and class sizes are far larger than on the international circuit.
I'd also say that your categorisation of teachers as either being super teachers or incompetents is way too simplistic. I don't have the time or inclination to list them but there are probably at least 50 variables that affect teachers and their practice.