What schools would you but on the list of Elite or Premier?
Top ten list?
Premier/ Elite Tier
Big Question
There is a similar post on some of the members top ten schools, and while there would be some overlap, you wont really find a lot of agreement. If you want the short answer about the premier/elite schools, just go to the Department of States "Assisted Schools" list
http://www.state.gov/m/a/os/c1684.htm
While not complete its a good start at least on the american side. COBIS in the UK has a similar resource for British schools.
http://www.state.gov/m/a/os/c1684.htm
While not complete its a good start at least on the american side. COBIS in the UK has a similar resource for British schools.
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lightstays
- Posts: 116
- Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:07 am
- Location: Americas
While I think this is a worthy thread, and deserves to exist as some kind of "Blue Ribbon School" list that we update from year to year on ISR, I don't think State's support is indicative of very much. I hear absolutely wretched things about State-supported school in Africa for instance.
It would take some research but if someone were to establish a metric that took staff turnover, university acceptances, IB results, teachers salary and English proficiency into account--and averaged all of this over, say, the last decade--then we might start to have a common appreciation for just what are unarguably Tier 1 schools.
It would take some research but if someone were to establish a metric that took staff turnover, university acceptances, IB results, teachers salary and English proficiency into account--and averaged all of this over, say, the last decade--then we might start to have a common appreciation for just what are unarguably Tier 1 schools.
Disclaimer
No, not at all and im going to refrain from commenting about schools in Africa.
As i wrote, no ones really going to agree on much of a top ten list, and there are other posts discussing the same thing. I wanted to give you a starting point, and a simple answer, that while not perfect is a pretty good starting point, and while not all DOS or COBIS schools are the best in the region, they usually are in the tier 1 schools for a region.
As i wrote, no ones really going to agree on much of a top ten list, and there are other posts discussing the same thing. I wanted to give you a starting point, and a simple answer, that while not perfect is a pretty good starting point, and while not all DOS or COBIS schools are the best in the region, they usually are in the tier 1 schools for a region.
Yeah, sure I can see your point. I do think lightstays though makes an excellent suggestion.
Any one out there a real stats geek and would like to pour over some data? I think the results of a real dynamic study would provide an interesting debate...
Perhaps, Psyguy it might be something your interested in since you often enjoy posting here?
Any one out there a real stats geek and would like to pour over some data? I think the results of a real dynamic study would provide an interesting debate...
Perhaps, Psyguy it might be something your interested in since you often enjoy posting here?
Already tried
I already tried, and Im not the only one. The problem isnt the -, but too many holes in the data set. You cant force schools to supply the data, and several factors are simply not in the schools interests to report. For example, IB scores are easy enough to come up with, but schools with high turnover simply dont report. Several factors like university acceptance are trivial variables, acceptance rate is almost 100% BUT schools depend on students to supply them with that information, and students really only supply that information if they were accepted to a prestigious school. We also found that variables like salary were too subjective, due to cost of living in a region, and produced a lot of "manipulated" data (inflated salary).
In the end though, the biggest obstacles were two fold, small cell size and operational definitions (mainly what was it that made a school an "international" school).
Basically, a valid "list" of the best schools in the world would be worth a LOT of money to any school that was on it, and detrimental to any school that wasnt. Thats why even on this forum, and amongst other teachers, the formula that makes a school a "top tier" school is pretty much summed up by compensation, and work/living environment:
1) How much am i paid?
2) What are the kids/parents/admins like?
3) Is it a fun and safe place to live?
Everything a teacher values fits into one of those three questions.
In the end though, the biggest obstacles were two fold, small cell size and operational definitions (mainly what was it that made a school an "international" school).
Basically, a valid "list" of the best schools in the world would be worth a LOT of money to any school that was on it, and detrimental to any school that wasnt. Thats why even on this forum, and amongst other teachers, the formula that makes a school a "top tier" school is pretty much summed up by compensation, and work/living environment:
1) How much am i paid?
2) What are the kids/parents/admins like?
3) Is it a fun and safe place to live?
Everything a teacher values fits into one of those three questions.
In reflection
Honestly, for me when I was doing the work, it ultimately would have had little value, because the utility of such a list would be short lived. It takes 2 years to get the data, and its useful only until schools (those just under the top 10) start making changes to "move up". Seriously, in China the mean salary SD (Standard Deviation) was $988 USD, that means the difference between a schools salary at the 50th percentile and the 84th percentile was $494 USD, thats it. When a school "hears" data like that they think for a meager $500 they can jump from the middle to the top 20%, and thats a cheap and easy move for them to make. VERY soon your right back where your started because enough of the data has now changed to invalidate your top ten schools, that essentially you no longer know with any confidence who the top ten are any longer.
NDA
I cant really say, during my summers I work for a consulting company in education, this last summer I was in Hong Kong mostly.
I dont think its pure imagination, there are real differences. if you go back to those two factors compensation and work/living environment. The first one, compensation, is much more objective. If your in beijing and School A offers you 30K RMB and School B offers you 35k RMB at least in one aspect you can easily argue that School B is "better" then School A. You can do such comparisons pretty easily when it comes to things like money, housing, work hours, etc. Its that second factor "environment" and its subjectiveness that the model breaks down. Too many variables are matters of preference, more then anything. Even something simple like weather/climate, that a school has no control over, often are deal breakers. Singapore for instance is very hot and tropical, and for someone that wants the tropical beach life, Singapore would be a nice choice, but for someone who hates sweating and likes things dry, Singapore would be a nightmare at any salary.
One observation I hear every so often is when someone describes a place as one "you either love it or hate it, with no middle ground" I personally feel that thats true for EVERYONE about EVERY PLACE. We become polarized in our opinion of a location. You may be in the middle now, but eventually and pretty quickly you move to either the love or the hate side. For instance I hate Eqypt, Cairo actually. If im being dispassionate and "objective" about it and wearing my academic hat, then I actually have some positives about the place. After my experiences though, and it was really only one thing that made the whole place so intolerable that it colors my entire opinion of the place and its people.
So whats that little story have to do with the tier system, and elite, prestige, premier schools. Its that those words are all just names and they are names for schools we love. Get enough people, whether students, alumni, professors, teachers, admins, recruiters, what ever and that shared "love" becomes the elite, premiere, prestigious "top tier" schools. So is the tier system imaginary? It doesnt matter, its a shared vision if it is, and there is REAL strength in numbers, and thats real enough.
I dont think its pure imagination, there are real differences. if you go back to those two factors compensation and work/living environment. The first one, compensation, is much more objective. If your in beijing and School A offers you 30K RMB and School B offers you 35k RMB at least in one aspect you can easily argue that School B is "better" then School A. You can do such comparisons pretty easily when it comes to things like money, housing, work hours, etc. Its that second factor "environment" and its subjectiveness that the model breaks down. Too many variables are matters of preference, more then anything. Even something simple like weather/climate, that a school has no control over, often are deal breakers. Singapore for instance is very hot and tropical, and for someone that wants the tropical beach life, Singapore would be a nice choice, but for someone who hates sweating and likes things dry, Singapore would be a nightmare at any salary.
One observation I hear every so often is when someone describes a place as one "you either love it or hate it, with no middle ground" I personally feel that thats true for EVERYONE about EVERY PLACE. We become polarized in our opinion of a location. You may be in the middle now, but eventually and pretty quickly you move to either the love or the hate side. For instance I hate Eqypt, Cairo actually. If im being dispassionate and "objective" about it and wearing my academic hat, then I actually have some positives about the place. After my experiences though, and it was really only one thing that made the whole place so intolerable that it colors my entire opinion of the place and its people.
So whats that little story have to do with the tier system, and elite, prestige, premier schools. Its that those words are all just names and they are names for schools we love. Get enough people, whether students, alumni, professors, teachers, admins, recruiters, what ever and that shared "love" becomes the elite, premiere, prestigious "top tier" schools. So is the tier system imaginary? It doesnt matter, its a shared vision if it is, and there is REAL strength in numbers, and thats real enough.
Sigh
Since your going to keep asking, my top 10 schools list:
1) AS Paris
2) IS Berne
3) IS Brussels
4) AS Milan
5) Stockholm IS
6) AS London
7) ASIJ (Japan)
8-10) In no particular order: WAB, Singapore AS, Frankfurt
If I had to pick one school to retire at: IS Suva (Fiji).
1) AS Paris
2) IS Berne
3) IS Brussels
4) AS Milan
5) Stockholm IS
6) AS London
7) ASIJ (Japan)
8-10) In no particular order: WAB, Singapore AS, Frankfurt
If I had to pick one school to retire at: IS Suva (Fiji).
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overseasvet2
- Posts: 191
- Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:50 pm
Milan???
I am interested in why you would put Milan so high. The city is dirty and industrial. The salary vs cost of living in Italy is awful and two people I know who worked there hated it. Would love to hear the positive perspective.
Milan
Milan is the financial capitol of Italy to begin with. First, I don't have a problem with industrial, it means Internet is available and fast, mobile reception is great. Milan is simply more modern and efficient. It's like the Hong Kong of Italy. I don't know where they got dirty from though, as it's not any different then Rome is, and while I lived and worked in Rome last year and have only visited Milan, I didn't find it any more dirty then elsewhere.
IS's tend to pay pretty well, and I'm single, so I really found the night life far more enjoyable. Rome is either college students or tourists. Milan is more the 30's and young professionals crowd. If you have a family Rome is more your pace, but as a single guy in my 30's Milan is a lot more fun, and has more conveniences that are run more efficiently.
IS's tend to pay pretty well, and I'm single, so I really found the night life far more enjoyable. Rome is either college students or tourists. Milan is more the 30's and young professionals crowd. If you have a family Rome is more your pace, but as a single guy in my 30's Milan is a lot more fun, and has more conveniences that are run more efficiently.