PsyGuy wrote:

> I have to reinforce the forum consensus that going to teach in a DS is
> highly advised. Even if the coin wasnt there, the reality is that ISs and
> IE in general is not resourced or mentored very well to provide the
> "apprenticeship" a noob IT/DT needs. So much of the job is very
> different from what you are trained to do, and IE expects you to it the
> ground running with little to no hand holding. Parents pay significant coin
> in fees for their children to get the best education they can afford, and
> not serve as a lab for a noob IT to make their bones. Your first year as a
> DT is just muddling through it, you have two objectives: content delivery
> and classroom management, and you really dont have the tools to do both of
> them to any level of competence. Your second year is doing the second
> objective you neglected during the first year. DE is prepared for that,
> extra prep time, a mentor, leadership that understands the growing pains,
> etc..
>

Didn't we establish in a very recent thread that you actually get more prep time at an IS than a DS? A teacher in the UK is expected to teach 90% timetable, if you're an an NQT it's 80% - giving the NQT 3 hours of prep time a week, whereas the normal teacher (remember you're only an NQT for a year) gets 90 mins.

And I'll tell you now having a 'mentor' can be as much of a downside as an upside. If you get a good mentor that's valuable. A bad mentor will make your life hell. I've had both types so far on my PGCE.

Leadership in a DS, like anywhere, can vary from understanding and hand holding, to overly-critical complete nutjobs who expect you to work 12 hours a day 'for the benefit of the kids'.

And you can't just brush the salary issue under the table like it's not important. We're not talking about a couple of thousand extra here. A UK NQT could easily earn double what they could do at home, when factoring in taxes and the value of accomodation abroad. If you can actually earn $50,000 as a first year teacher in the US my salary point has less weight there admittedly, but for UK teachers it's a huge reason to go abroad right away.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

@mamava

Why do I have to have lived there before I get to express an opinion on the region? Again, you do not get to decide what is acceptable to post.

If someone came to this forum and said they'd got a job in North Korea teaching Kim Jong Un's children, could no one express any concerns over that posting unless they'd been to NK? What about someone who said they were planning to go to an ISIS controlled area of Syria for work? No one can comment unless they've been there? Total nonsense. Contributers can feel free to give their opinion about a region despite never living there.

I'd never live in Africa. There's good reasons for this.

Interested in comparing this with the UK to see if it's any better. Teachers at my placement schools so far in the UK get about 90 mins a week for prep. Any better abroad? Because everyone says (and I agree) that the 90 mins is in no way adequate to get everything done.

@OzGrad

You're fully qualified as soon as you have your teaching licence. The 2 years thing is just what many/most international schools want to see.

It's true you won't be competetive for the higher end schools without the 2 initial years - but even the lower tier places pay significantly more than 'back home' when you figure you're paying less/no taxes and have your accomodation paid for you. Working in a US or UK DS is a third tier option in itself, I don't think you're any worse off jumping ship right away. For instance, the IS I've ended up getting a job (as an NQT for the next academic year) at is one of the lower payers in the country. But when factoring in the value of accomodation, my after-tax takehome at the 'third tier' school is twice what I'd have after tax in the UK. That's an extremely significant difference and one that is often not weighed up by contributers who blindly state 2 years at home is the best route.

According to Nathan61's logic, no one could express reservations about the merits of going to work in North Korea unless they've actually been there themselves.

Tbh I'd pick North Korea over some African countries too.

That stuff about following your passions isn't entirely true. Yes, you should have a lifestyle goal in mind and set out to achieve it. I also do not believe in burning precious years doing something that makes you miserable just because it looks pretty on your CV. However, at some point you may have to make some compromises to make your dream a reality. Is your passion PE teaching, or is it working abroad? If it's both, which one is most important?

If I'd followed my 'passion', and did a PGCE in my degree subject, I knew I'd find it much more difficult to get a job since there's no market for my degree subject abroad. That's why I've done it in Primary/Elementary instead - because by far the bigger goal for me is to live outside the UK rather than anything teaching or education related. You need to decide what's most important to you.

@PsyGuy

$45k including all benefits (which you wouldn't get if you sat in the UK doing an MA) seems about right. Figure $35k plus your accomodation and a couple of thousand for flights, it'd come to about $45k.

I'm unsure of Oxbridge making you a shoe-in for a leadership role with minimal experience. You're telling me a school is going to appoint a 23 year old to an executive position after they've got their degree, teaching licence, and an MA from Oxford? Likely these guys who get into leadership with minimal teaching experience had LEADERSHIP experience in other careers prior to getting into education.

I do believe the name is worth 'something', but I'm not sure I'd quantify that 'something' as being above $45k. It's difficult to quantify though - if you get into leadership with a Cambridge MA, you may also have got in with an MA from a more standard uni. What the numbers of Oxbridge/Ivy leadership compared to other leadership? Do those unis make up a disproportionate amount of leadership positions? Maybe they do, I'm not sure.

I don't really think it's debatable that having to live in Oxford on a part-time salary is going to be hardship. It's bad enough on a full time wage, that place is one of the most expensive in the UK.

Finally - getting into Oxbridge to study isn't going to be easy, even at postgrad level. You'd better know your stuff and wow them at interview.

@PsyGuy

I thought potentially, one could use the PGCEi to get US teacher registration, then apply for QTS? In that sense, it really doesn't matter where you do your practical experience (or even if you do any at all).

I'd much prefer to do any credential in an ESL-type school than a first tier international. The second group actually have standards, whereas the ESL school will just sign off the paper when required without doing all the observations, data gathering and other BS. If the end result is the same credential, do the easier option. Especially because in this case the disadvantage of the ESL school (lower pay) won't apply, since the first tier IS probably isn't going to be paying you anyway.

@mamava

You don't get to decide by yourself what is posted in this thread. My opinion on the region is perfectly valid - I'd never live there because I consider it to be a hardship location lacking the basic features for a reasonable quality of life. Clearly I'm not alone in this opinion which is why African schools have trouble recruiting.

Apply to anything that you think would be suitable and hope something sticks. There's no other way to do it.

I'm 100% supportive of NOT getting the 2 years experience. Life in the West is terrible, why subject oneself to 2 more years of it? Career be damned, this is your life, and time is the most valuable thing of all. Don't waste it being miserable.

I don't have 2 years experience (I'm still a PGCE student), and I've got a job abroad in a decent location for next year. Pay is a LOT better than I'd be getting back home. Lifestyle a ton better. Why wait and subject yourself to hardship - just bite the bullet and go.

@mamava

Why should we - just so you can close your eyes and ears to alternative opinion? The fact is that the vast majority of negative opinion is going to come from people who haven't lived there, simply because the majority of IT's would never even consider moving to Africa. The ones that do are generally the...umm...shall we say eccentric/alternative types.

No child wants to live somewhere that the water isn't clean, the internet doesn't work regularly, and they can't play outside because of the risk of getting kidnapped.

The PGCEi doesn't require working under a UKNC school. Loads of ESL'ers get it to move into better jobs, and most of them will be working with local students under a local curriculum.

carolina wrote:

> FYI: In-person demo lessons and/or video is the norm for p-12 hiring in the
> districts I've worked in. I was SHOCKED that none of the schools I
> interviewed with this year requested anything akin to a demo lesson. I
> suspect it's coming though, especially for those who are new to the
> profession.

I certainly hope not.

I'm not convinced by the position that an Oxbridge on campus MA is worth the $45,000 MORE you give up in pay+benefits over a typical bargain basement online MA from a mediocre uni. Both are moving you to the MA payscale, so the Oxbridge one really has to get you into a position that a typical online MA wouldn't.

It's difficult to quantify (i.e. if you become admin, it might have been that you'd made admin even with a less prestigious university) but it feels like a lot of ground to make up.

Plus you've got to live in the UK for a year, so the extra ROI would have to be massive to tolerate that hardship.